how I'm reading Plato now

Here are my resources: the LCL text, Steadman’s commentary on the Crito, the Attikos app, and a spiral-bound notebook.

First, I copy by hand, into the notebook, the next phrase from the LCL text, with a line break at the end of the phrase. This provides the Greek in the left side of the notebook page. On the right side of the same page, I write a trial translation, phrase-by-phrase, often in translationese intended to suggest the Greek grammar rather than to provide pleasing English.

For unknown words and challenging parsings, I consult Attikos and Steadman. I use the LCL Engish translation to check my work.

I do this phrase-by-phrase. I don’t try to guess the meaning of a whole sentence. Before I write down another phrase, I make sure that I understand the present one. Plato’s prose breaks down nicely into a series of phrases.

Now and then I write notes on the grammar, right at the phrase which required study.

After I complete a paragraph, I try to read the same para in the LCL text, unaided by the LCL English translation, and without referring to the notes. Upon failure, check notes and the LCL translation, and try again.

I prepared a pdf of a sample notebook page. I hope the link works for you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nXA7YkgvfwZD7BhNgsz5G215PT6rn-_e/view?usp=sharing

Hi, you say you’re reading. But I think what you’re doing is not really reading, but translating, puzzling over grammar, and unnecessarily terrible work. You’ll probably never learn to read by translating. It’s better to read a large number of easy texts and learn to understand Greek directly, and then try to read harder texts like you are reading now. The only way to learn a language is a huge amount of comprehensible input.
I recommend reading the FAQ here for that:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AncientGreek/

I’ve been learning Greek for over 5 years, and the last two years finally as a normal living language. I have mastered the grammar of the entire textbook without learning the tables, just by speaking Greek with my Greek teacher. I also read at least 10 pages of texts every day. But I mainly read easy and super easy texts where I know at least 97-100% of the grammar and vocabulary. I try to understand it directly in Greek, without any translation. That’s why I often listen to these texts as audio or even watch movies in Greek.

The Criton you are reading has over 4000 words. My Greek teacher and I speak 2 hours of only Greek every week. In that time we say at least 8000 - 10000 words. That’s about two of your books. That’s how much comprehensible input a person needs to learn a language.

I recommend that you at least listen to the book afterwards if you’re having such a hard time translating and deciphering it:
http://www.juliustomin.org/crito.html

Paveln’s way is a lot closer to how I picked up what Greek I have. But I don’t believe that he is correct about never learning through translation. It has advantages as well as disadvantages.

Sometimes I translate something too, but very minimally, I spend at most 5% of my time translating. Or I do it in such a way that what I don’t understand, I look it up in the translation and then I try to understand it in Greek. I have done some books in Greek with translation into my native language. And what I don’t understand, I just skip it or read it in translation and then continue in Greek. Maybe next time I’ll understand it :wink:

Now it was for example the book Jonah from the LXX, I didn’t understand a few verses from the second and fourth chapter, so I read it in translation and that’s it. Then the rest of the reading in Greek is finally fun and easy :sunglasses:

Could you please describe how you learned Greek? And how do you read? Thank you very much.

Thanks for the comments paveln.

I’d like to hear how you’ve been studying Greek over these five years. What do you do when the teacher is not with you?

I agree entirely with the comprehensible-input principle, in general, but what’s available to me locally, and my personal peculiarities have made comprehensible-input study difficult for me to manage.

Hi Hugh, your chunking approach looks good to me. A variant to consider would be replacing the right hand column with commentary instead of translation: ie picking out everything you’d need to be able to translate (but without doing so), writing your own personal commentary.

Then go back a month or so later and see what commentary notes from your own commentary that you now find redundant (that will show your improvement concretely: striking out parts of your own commentary which you no longer need).

You won’t actually be doing any translation here, but would keep your strong focus on grammar and syntax, which will lead to stronger reading ability as the notes fall away.

Cheers, Chad

The detailed explanation is helpful. I’ve had some trouble understanding the idea of “making a commentary”, as it relates to my stage of learning.

Most of the published commentaries I’ve tried to use seem to assume that the reader already understands the literal meaning of the Greek text, but getting the literal meaning is what I struggle to do. At my level is exactly where Geoffrey Steadman is useful. He knows where somebody like me is apt to stumble. I had a similar reaction to James O’Donnell’s online commentary on the Latin Consolation of Philosophy.

Hi Hugh

Thanks for sharing your working methods with us.

I wonder what exactly your focus is? If it is learning greek then I don’t think this is likely to help. If it is producing your own translation then it looks a possible method.

I think that in learning a language there are two things we have to train ourselves to do. First is not to think of translating, this seems like an irresistible urge but it has to be resisted to make progress. Translation is the possible end of the process not the beginning. The second is to concentrate on endings and not the beginning of words (except to notice any augments). Mostly we look at the beginnings of words so we can deduce meaning and then with half and probably misunderstood meaning we try to to impose some order on the syntax. Starting from the other end of the telescope working out the possible syntax and ignoring what the words might mean seems a good first step. Its what I try to do with my Latin students. But they are resistant and feel like translation is a measure of their understanding.

“I do this phrase-by-phrase. I don’t try to guess the meaning of a whole sentence.”

I think this is a mistake often by trying to puzzle out the syntax in a whole sentence what happens later on in a sentence may give you a clue to the beginning.

"Now and then I write notes on the grammar, right at the phrase which required study. "

I think “now and then” should be replaced by always until you are only writing down more complex grammatical constructions.

“After I complete a paragraph, I try to read the same para in the LCL text, unaided by the LCL English translation, and without referring to the notes. Upon failure, check notes and the LCL translation, and try again.”

This seems to be more a test of memory than understanding. if you recognise the endings and have worked on the syntax then you will be able to work out again what the text is from just a few hints.

There is unfortunately no shortcut to learning morphology. Either learning and revising tables of endings or as others here seem to have done by reading a lot of simple Greek. Have you read a lot of Lucian?

I am not sure any of this is any help at all. If you enjoy what you do then dont worry too much about changing course. If its a source of frustration then you have to think again, if a particular strategy doesn’t work stop blaming yourself and find another way of doing things.

As Dickey says we are all always forgetting things, even with constant revision some things will disappear. Dont feel bad about it.

Perhaps a summer working through Athenaze and doing all the exercises putting your existing knowledge on a sounder footing would be a good idea? Perhaps you could do that alongside working on Plato.

We are all individuals and what suits one will not suit another. Reading greek is not a competition its a source of enjoyment.

Are you making progress, and are you enjoying yourself? If so, then good for you.

You don’t say in your OP how much of the vocabulary you have to look up. If you’re spending lots and lots of your time thumbing through paper dictionaries, and it feels cumbersome and slow, then you could consider trying to “pre-load” the vocabulary in your memory before diving into a particular page. (I do that for Homer using the method shown in my sig.) But if you enjoy the word study for its own sake, then that’s fine.

It sounds like you’re really interested in this particular text, which is great, but rather than switching entirely to easier material, one possibility (if you feel like you’re discouraged or bogged down with Plato) would be to supplement that with something easier. A textkit user has put up some nice Attic translations of some comic books. I found the gospel of Mark helpful for this purpose, since I already pretty much knew the contents, and the language is really easy. (But maybe switching back and forth to koine would be too much of a pain for you.) The advantage might be that it would help you to build speed, fluency, and vocabulary, so that you could tackle more of Plato without slowing down except on the hard sentences.

People say that when you learn a language, you should try not to translate, but I’m not sure to what extent that’s backed up by any actual research on language acquisition. My understanding is that neurologically, second language acquisition is very different from what you do when you learn your first language as a toddler. Personally, as I’m reading Homer, I only write out a trial translation in the margin of the book if I’m finding a particular sentence very difficult.

Good questions, Ben. I enjoyed thinking about them.

Am I making progress? Yes

Do I enjoy what I do? Yes. Studying Greek for an hour or two is the first thing I do every day. It’s what I do when I want relief from annoying thoughts.

Looking up words in the Crito? I use the iOS app Attikos. Attikos displays the Greek text of the Crito. Touch a word, get a brief dictionary definition (in English) and a parsing. Touch again, get any of several dictionary articles. Fast, fast relief!

These particular books. Studying certain works in Greek (and Latin), is an educational “sentimental journey” for me, back through books I read long ago in English. Doing this has existential meaning for me.

The “don’t translate” precept. This is a noble goal for one’s study, and I think the application for a beginner is in striving to recognize word meanings immediately, without first thinking the English. IMO, for a conscientious student, this happens automatically, as one reads enough to see the words again and again. After many repetitions, the need for an English clue falls away.

NT Greek v. Attic: not a problem for me. An NT lexicon takes much of the pain out of reading NT, and helps identify forms that need re-study. An NT lexicon indexes every variation of a word used. You needn’t know the lemma to look up a word. I have studied the gospel of John and the acts of the Apostles. I think the NT is a helpful book to study because lexical aids are easy to find.

Hi, I don’t know what the actual research on language acquisition is, but I am able to think in the languages I have acquired - I don’t have to translate them. Even though I don’t know them perfectly.
My native language is Czech.
I have learned the following languages, but some only a little: Slovak, English, Russian, German and Classical Greek.

My Greek teacher also learned to speak Greek with me :slight_smile: Now he speaks very fast and it is impossible with translating. I also speak quite fast now, but sometimes with mistakes. I understand the teacher perfectly, without translating, even when I am very tired and sleep deprived. The brain simply develops a centre for the language and I understand easily and quickly, without effort. Even for the Classical Greek. Then I don’t concentrate on how to say it, I don’t think about grammar, endings and words, but on what I want to say - I often make jokes with my teacher. Or we want to say something interesting and we forget to think about how to say it correctly in Greek and think only about what we want to say.

How did I learn Greek? The first few years, pretty badly, because I didn’t know how to do it. I originally started learning Greek about 6 years ago so I could read the New Testament in the original Greek.

  1. I took a free Greek class at a church, they tried to teach us all the tables in 3 months, and now you know Greek! I described hundreds of papers with tables of all forms and endings, but it wasn’t much use.

  2. At that time I was looking for how to learn Greek properly. I discovered this textbook:
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9657698006/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i3
    And we started to learn by ourselves without a teacher - me and two brothers from the church.
    We tried to speak Greek and did a lot of TPR (Total Physical Response) together:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJrGaOF-bOw
    This is an excellent way to acquire the language. It’s much easier to remember. I can still remember what we learned with TPR those five years ago. This was excellent, we went through the whole textbook together. Unfortunately we had to stop after one year.

  3. Then I started taking New Testament Greek, which was taught by teachers from the university. They promised us that we would read from day one! Ha ha ha! How can one read when one can barely read letters and knows next to nothing! Again, we were taught all the tables and tried to translate the New Testament.

At that time I was looking a lot for how to learn languages properly and therefore I learned the most common words, the ones that were in the NT at least fifty times. I used Anki for that. It was a good idea to learn those words because then I could translate much better than the other classmates. Again, I wrote hundreds of tables on papers.

  1. Then I was forced to quit Greek for about three quarters of a year. Then when I wanted to start again, I found that I had forgotten practically all the tables I had learned! I’m almost fifty years old now, and I have a hard time remembering such things, much less being able to remember them long term.

  2. I then continued to study Greek with those teachers from the university, trying to read or rather translate a rather difficult text from NT Romans. About 8 chapters in a year, and in retrospect I realize it was useless - just a waste of time and money.

  3. After three years of learning, I could translate easy texts at the level of the Gospel of John. Not much!

  4. But at the time I was intensely concerned with learning languages properly, even the Greek one. I found a Greek teacher and together we often discussed how to do it. I got a lot of easy Greek books, texts and graded readers. This teacher bought all these easy texts as well.

8 ) At that time (March 2020) COVID-19 suddenly appeared and my teacher and I could no longer meet at school or anywhere else. Luckily it was warm outside so we met in the park. For the first 3 months or so we learned to speak Greek together using the book Dialogos:
https://www.amazon.com/Diálogos-Prácticas-Griego-antiguo-Ancient/dp/8494534610
Then we went through one Greek book, the whole grammar, but only speaking and TPR, without learning the tables. We meet once a week for two hours and we mostly speak only Greek together. In these two years I have mastered all the grammar that I can finally understand without translating and reading is becoming a pleasure instead of a hard slog.

  1. What do I do on my own without a teacher? I used to “read” but it was actually very slow translating.
    Nowadays I actually read and it’s a very fun pleasure - I have lots of easy texts and graded readers, at least 50 books. Like Italian Athenaze, Thrasymachos, Alexandros, Mythologica, New Testament, LXX, Kataskopos, Bedwere’s comics, JACT Reading greek, etc. I use all those books only as readings, I don’t do any exercises from them. That is, only the ones that have questions in Greek. I’m only interested in comprehensible input.
    I also have a lot of audios and even videos. And sometimes I read harder texts, but only with translation, so I can look it up if I don’t understand something. For example, Aristophanes, Lukianos, Aesop, Plato, etc.
    I usually read about 1 hour a day. I read about 10 pages in that time. I choose reading that is interesting, entertaining and that I understand almost everything. If I have the vocabulary for a book, I’ll do a quick study before reading. I listen to audios when I’m cleaning, for example. 1.5 hours is the audio of Athenaze 1. You can listen to or read a lot in an hour.

And most importantly, it’s now finally fun and enjoyable, just like I wanted and imagined reading the New Testament in the beginning.

A very interesting witness paveln.

I’ve also had a lot of trouble memorizing the tables. I do a little work on this as study reveals my errors.

I don’t do the exercises (in JACT). Given that I’m aiming to read in Ancient Greek (not to translate it into English), and that I am not not trying to learn the grammatical theory of the language, I prefer not to spend precious time on the exercises. Is this a mistake? What do others think?

I don’t know much about the particular exercises that are in JACT. Greek → English and English → Greek translation exercises teach much more than grammar theory, and maybe not much of that. Are they a more efficient use of your time than more reading practice? What proportion of your study time should they be? I wonder if anyone really knows. If you haven’t found yourself stuck or discouraged, why worry about what’s working for you?

My favorite exercise lately is to translate to Latin and then back to Greek, out loud, using some parallel Latin & Greek text or other to check myself. It’s difficult, but not too difficult. I seem to improve the more I do of it. And most importantly, it’s fun. While that lasts, I’ll stick with it.

The exercises are to reinforce the grammar and ensure you have actively understood what you have read. In the early chapters they test your grasp of morphology. If you can achieve those ends some other way, such as identifying forms in the text and thinking about changing them eg from singular to plural or formulating your own questions to test comprehension that’s great do that. It seems to me easier to use the questions already formulated in the book.

Grammar is never studied by beginners or even more advanced students in a theoretical way. It is a practical set of rules to help guide you through a text, not an end in itself. Without studying it you will find reading quite hard. Translating into Greek is probably the most helpful, so if time is short concentrate on that.

In my Latin class those that have done the exercises make most progress.

I also don’t do exercises from textbooks. I mostly use textbooks only as readers. Why? Because the exercises are mostly bad and boring, and especially not in Greek. But as seneca2008 writes the exercises are very important.

So how do I practice new grammar and vocabulary? I only do the exercises that are in Greek so I don’t have to translate anything. To acquire the language directly.

  1. Some textbooks have exercises in Greek, I do all these exercises. For example, the whole textbook:
    Amazon.com: Polis: Speaking Ancient Greek as a Living Language, Level One, Student's Volume: 9789657698006: Rico, Christophe, Daise, Michael, Ashkenazi, Lior: Books

  2. The best exercise for me is TPR (Total Physical Response)
    My friends or teacher tells me the commands and I do it. That way you remember it 5 - 10 times better and faster. See:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJrGaOF-bOw
    This way it completely burns into the memory and I understand it perfectly right in Greek.

  3. It is also excellent to listen to the text as audio after reading it. There are excellent recordings for JACT - I recommend them. Listening to it also helps one remember and acquire the language much better. If there are no audios with the book, I sometimes record them myself.

  4. And now the most important thing! I practice everything by speaking, either with myself or with my teacher or with someone via chat, etc. I practice and learn new vocabulary and grammar this way. It’s very useful, fun and above all fast. I make several times more sentences in 10 minutes than the exercises in the textbook.

First, I’ll write where I got my inspiration and how I do it:

(a) The text “How to Get the Most out of Talking to Yourself in Ancient Greek”. I can’t find the text on the internet, so I’ll copy it into the following post.

b) In the book First Greek Course:

See exercises 1 and 2 on page 8 and then the exercises on pages 12, 17, 23, etc.

c) With various teachers who teach Greek as a living language. For example, Paul Nitz has excellent videos on many grammars. For example, this super one on participles:

d) Talking to myself in Greek is good when I’m doing some unimportant activity where I can think in Greek - for example, when I’m taking a shower or walking down the street and see lots of things and people, etc. But of course it’s more fun to talk to someone, I talk to my teacher for two hours every week and that’s how I practice and learn all the grammar. But you can do it even if you just talk to yourself.

An example of how I do it, for example I have to learn the word eye and its inflection. I’m just saying this quickly, I’m not writing anything.
τι εστιν ο οφθαλμος;
ο οφθαλμος εστιν μελος του σωματος.
εχομεν δυο οφθαλμους, ωδε επι της κεφαλης.
αλλα Κυκλωψ εχει μονον ενα οφθαλμον.
τοις οφθαλμοις ημων βλεπομεν,
αλλα Κυκλωψ μονον ενι οφθαλμω βλεπει.
ποιον χρωμα των οφθαλμων μου;
κυανους οφθαλμους εχω.
και ποιον χρωμα του οφθαλμου του Κυκλωπος;
ουκ οιδαμεν, οτι νυν οφθαλμον ηδη ουκ εχει.
κτλ.

How to Get the Most out of Talking to Yourself in Ancient Greek

Προθεὶς ἐκ Mark Lightman ἐπὶ Ἰούνιος 12, 2010 περὶ 10:30am

If you are going to learn to use Ancient Greek, you will wind up spending a lot of time talking to yourself. It is a challenge to find other speakers, and even if you can, you simply cannot spend enough time with them to speak on a regular basis. You have to speak Ancient Greek EVERY day, for about an hour a day, so unless your spouse speaks Greek, that leaves…yourself.

The good news is that speaking Greek to yourself, as opposed to reading, writing, or listening to it, can be done anywhere and really can be made part of your daily routine. You can talk to yourself in Greek in the shower, in the car, while you exercise. You can talk to yourself in Greek while you are doing the dishes or changing a baby. Most of us have jobs where at least some of the time we can talk to ourselves in Greek. (If your boss catches you, just say you have stopped taking your medication.)

I have found that in the past few months, I have gotten more out of talking to myself in Greek. A few years ago when I tried it, it seemed forced and not very helpful. I should say right off that I think the things we do on Schole, writing in Greek, listening to audios, watching and making videos, are a huge help in speaking Greek. I should also say of course that I am no expert, and really I post this hoping that others will have further suggestions.

I have found that it is best to try to talk about things while you do them. I mentioned the shower. νυν εισερχομαι εις το λουτρον. νυν επιχεω υδωρ επι του σωματος μου. Then switch the construction. νυν το υδωρ επιχεεται επι μου. Start with simple verbs and objects in the present. εγω πλυνω τας χειρας. εγω πλυνω το προσωπον μου. εγω πλυνω τα σκελη μου. Say it every day while you are in the shower, and practice it several times a day while you are at the copy machine or while you are in the grocery store. After you get that down, you can do variations. εχθες επλυνον το σωμα μου. You can switch the word order. τας χειρας νυν πλυνω. Then you add adjectives. εγω πλυνω τας χειρας τας ρυπαρας. You do this everyday until you need more of challenge. πλυνω την κεφαλην μου υδατι θερμῳ.

To get started, you have to identify things you do every day. Just try to say them. THEN look the words up if you have to and confirm that you have the accents and the grammar right. The words you choose will depend on your Greek goals, but don’t get hung up on which words you choose. What really matters is using the syntax with the endings. I think it is better to use simpler, more common words. I recently learned the Homeric word for “bathroom” ασαμινθος, η." Ι used this for a while but switched to λουτρον because it is simpler. Again, I think speaking Greek is first about getting all the endings to become automatic. Vocab building can come latter.

The other thing I have just started trying is oral drills, based on a recommendation by John Sanders over at B-Greek. While I water the plants I say stuff like this. το σωμα μου ρυπαρον εστιν. δια τουτο δει με πλυνειν παν το σωμα. Then I switch to a different number, gender, and declension. αι χειραι μου ρυπαραι εισιν. δια τουτο δει με πλυνειν πασας τας χειρας. I try to do about ten of them which will cover all the forms, and I do them over and over again. I record this on my MP3 player and I listen to it back. (Hopefully I catch most of my mistakes this way. ) Then I come up with a new drill. αρτος ουκ εμοι. δια τουτο επιθυμω αρτου. I run through this with βρωσις, οινος, χιτων, κτλ. Then I do a drill where I use the same words in the dative.

EVERY TIME I do something I try to say it out loud. I go down my stairs and I say καταβαιων την κλιμακα. When I drive I say ελαυνω την αμαξαν μου. You can start a little dialogue with an imaginary friend so you cover the other forms. και συ, ω φιλε μου; συ ελαυνεις την αμαξαν; επαυριον ελασεις την αμαξαν σου; και το τεκνιον σου; αρα ουτος ελαυνει την αμαξαν αυτου; Again, the idea is to start with the basic phrase ελαυνω την αμαξαν. Say it over and over again. Then you can branch out. ου θελω ελαυνειν την αμαξαν μου. θελω αναγιγνωκσειν τα βιβλια Ομηρου.

If you are going to talk to yourself in Greek at every opportunity, you are going to need a pocket lexicon. I recently bought Langensheidt’s Pocket Dictionary of Classical Greek, which does fit in your pocket, but does not have principle parts or anything. It would be good to have a pocket grammar too, but I’m not aware of one that is really small. What I’ve done is written some paradigms in my dictionary. Contracts verbs above all seem to still give me trouble, as well as some rarer nouns and adjectives.

Then try to write the phrases you have been speaking to yourself to someone else. That’s what Schole and Dialogos and Textkit are for. Hopefully, in writing stuff I have been saying, I will catch more of my mistakes. Make an audio or video of the phrases you say ever day. Don’t film yourself in the shower, but you can film yourself sweeping. τι ποιω, ω φιλε μου; σαρω. την γην σαρω. δια τι; η γη ρυπαρα εστιν. σαρω ουν την ρυπαραν γην. Post the video on You Tube. it will help us internalize the language, but more importantly, it will help you.

Talking to yourself in Ancient Greek is no substitute for real discourse with real people, but it is the next best thing. I don’t know how much of this Spanish learners, for example do, but of course they are not as desperate for speakers as we are. I do know a lady who claims that she basically taught herself to speak French by talking to herself. Talking is of course composing on the fly, plus you get to hear the language.

I know that Τροφιμος λαλει προς εαυτον. I’d love to hear from him or others who have had experience with this. If anyone has more ideas for drills, let me know.

Remember not to neglect the other parts of γ.α.λ.α. These skills reenforce each other. In Heaven we will all be speaking to each other in Greek, but in the mean time, let me conclude with my customary injunction:
λαλει σεαυτον, παρακαλω. Ελληνιστι, παρακαλω.

Mark Lightman

Blackie describes the “talking to himself” method as well, in his book of dialogues. It’s hard to avoid errors though, without a native speaker to check you.

For example, ὀφθαλμός is not at all a μέλος. In Matthew, it’s singularly referred to as one, maybe as some sort of misunderstanding/garbling of the “member” that the original story was suggesting be cut off, so as to avoid adultery. You can use your imagination or see Enoch Powell’s commentary, or others that mention it.