Hello, please bear with a beginner’s question. Also, I hope the Greek phrase used in this post comes through fine because it is the first time I am using Polytonic Greek on the web. If the font does not come through, please tell me; for I have used Palatino Linotype which is supposed to fully support Polytonic Greek.
Could someone please tell me what is the use of the reflexive pronoun (οἱ ) used in the phrase below from Morice’s Stories in Attic Greek # 5, and how it is to be translated? There is a note in the text specifying that it is a pronoun, but there is no additional explanation.
οἱ δὲ αφικόμενοι τὰ τῆς ?ιόβης τέκνα πάντα κατετόξευσαν.
My Greek skills are very modest (13 units of Mastronarde), but then so is this phrase. I would “translate” it as follows:
“They arrived and shot down all of Niobe’s children.”
But where does the singular dative relexive pronoun come into it? The only example which Mastronarde gives ahead in unit 25 does not seem to apply, at least as far as I can see. Thanks for any help.
οἱ ἀφικόμενοι should probably be taken as a noun phrase (article + substantive), “the men who arrived” (because ἀφικόμενοι is an aorist participle, masculine nominative plural). οἱ is an article, then, and not a demonstrative pronoun (as it is in homer and, anaphorically, in herodotos).
δὲ, because it is a postpositive conjunction, intrudes between the article and the substantive.
“and the men who arrived shot down all of niobe’s children.”
It depends a bit on what was before that phrase. I will make the assumption that the phrase before said something like “and Leto went to Apollo and Artemis and told them what Niobe said”. I would therefore translate it probably (I don’t do single sentences translations with any amount of certainty most of the times) like “and they, arriving, shot down…”
Based on the previous sentence which I did not post here previously, I had unconsciously eliminated the possibility of a participle forming a noun phrase (I’ve seen this before in the NT).
So I guess that my second translation “And so they arrived and shot down all of Niobe’s children.” was not so far off the mark.
Irene, you used “Having arrived”, which seems to be better because it emphasizes that one action (arrival) occurred before the next action (shooting down using the bow).
aso, the author himself mentions that “οἱ” is a pronoun and not an article. Mastronarde calls this the “pronominal use of the article”, so I guess you are both right; one the one hand “οἱ” is classified as an article in Classical Attic, but on the other hand it is used as a pronoun, as indeed it was in earlier poetry like Homer.
Thank you all for your helping me, a simple beginner struggling to learn Attic Greek.
Dear Hellenophiles:
Sorry! I wrote some Greek phrases in latin transcription, other than Betacode. I have broke a sort of rule in this forum, I think. Excuse me, please. I promise I’ll do it never again.
Secondly no body complain about the way you typed the Greek part of the text eh? Using some specific styles of representing Greek certainly helps but it’s nor REALLY mandatory and ther was nothing in your text that was hard to understand.
As to Hellenophiles: While, by definition almost, Greek nationals belong to this group do you think it is right to call them/us so?
When I see o( de/ or oi( de/ or ai( de/ or h( de/ (a nominative with de/)
I see it as adversative, not additive. I don’t know if I am correct in this though.
The subject of discussion changed from on to another. But they, having arrived,…
I have used “hellenophiles” meaning: “those who love Greek language”. But I probably made a mistake. Perhaps I should have used “hellenists”, but I am not sure this term exists in English with that meaning.
Anyway, I expect your corrections or suggestions.
First of all I will probably crack some smart-doneky joke whatever word of the kind you may use ( being Greek myself so, as I said, both a hellenophile and a hellenist depending on the meaning you want to give to these words Therefore don’t mind me.
Bert
As to how I presonally translated the phrase: Note
a) that I assumed the mentioning of the names in the preceding phrase (gave one as an example too) since I recognised the myth (hard not to for me; One of the first ones I learn since my best friend in elementary school was named by her parents Leto who also decided for some obscure reason to name their younger daughter Niobe; Always puzzled me that, but I was too young to have the courage to ask ). The narration traditionally follows a certain pattern which I assumed was followed in this case too.
IF I had made the assumption that the phrase before was “Leto went to them and complained. After the meeting she went to have a good cry and shout invectives at ferile Niobe.” I would have to translate “de” as an adversive. I didn’t though did I? For it to be a “but they” actions of Leto after reporting the fact would have to be described. Perhaps the best translation would actually be “and they”. But needs an antithesis not existing here as I see it. Forget the Greek text and the rules of the Greek language for a minute and see it as a text in English. I think that “but” wouldn’t “fit”.
b) Plukidis did give us the preceding phrase. There’s no mention of any “men” to make “de” an adversative is there? (see above)
Thanks Irene. You are right. I was not very sure of myself when I wrote that (as you can see from my post) and I now see that maybe I should not see this construction as adversative but simply that it indicates a change in subject. Will this conclusion stand up to scrutiny?
I’d translate it either just “they said” (which is fine but sort of “disrupts” ) the flow of the narration" or “and they said”. Now I have no idea how the use of “and” is called in this case It is however used to “facilitate” the change of verb subject isn’t it? (I think so but then I told you, I don’t even know the right terminology for this)
Thanks all again for more postings on the subject. I suppose that now I need to break out a reference book in order to list all the uses of δε. Smyth is the only reference which I have access to. When I have some free time I’ll have a look.
I wrote some Greek phrases in latin transcription, other than Betacode. I have broke a sort of rule in this forum, I think. Excuse me, please. I promise I’ll do it never again.
Using some specific styles of representing Greek certainly helps but it’s nor REALLY mandatory and ther was nothing in your text that was hard to understand.
