Greetings from New Member: Walter M. Roberts III

I (Walter Melvin Roberts III) am an African-American was born in Detroit Michigan in 1959. I earned degrees from Columbia College (B.A. Philosophy and Classical Greek, 1983 summa cum laude), the University of Chicago (M.A. Philosophy, 1990), and UC Berkeley (M.A. Latin, 2000; Ph.D. Classics 2006). In 2011 my dissertation, Cicero’s Political Imperative: A Reading of On Duties, was published by VDM Verlag. In 2012 I resigned my tenure-track position at the University of Vermont in order to found Detroit Greek and Latin and Greek in Glacier.

Detroit Greek and Latin (hereafter DGL) is a 501(c)(3) public non-profit dedicated to offering Greater Detroit area students the opportunity to learn Ancient Greek and Latin. In addition, DGL aims to fortify existing Latin programs, and to increase the rigor of classics and language arts curricula—especially within the Detroit Public Schools.

Greek in Glacier — a June to August Greek and Latin intensive in Glacier National Park, MT. — is the summer-time home of DGL. (I have regularly summered in Glacier National (Polebridge, MT) since 1993.) I am an avid chess player, cyclist, and outdoorsman. In 2013 I had the pleasure of serving as Amendments Coordinator for the Senate of the Montana Legislature.

I am presently finishing work on a commentary to Iliad I. Three Quarrels: Agamemnon vs. the Priest of Apollo, Agamemnon vs. Achilles, Zeus vs. Hera attempts to redesign the “school commentary”; it is a running vocabulary, teacher’s manual, and self-tutorial supplement to Pharr’s Homeric Greek: A Book for Beginners — following the texts of Monro & Allen and Bekker (ϝ) and, it is ornamented with copious references to Smyth’s Greek Grammar, Goodwin’s Syntax of the Moods and Tenses of the Greek Verb, Denniston’s The Greek Particles, and Monro’s Homeric Grammar. For all but the most advanced readers of Homer, leaving no stone unturned, TQ exposes the nuances of Homeric diction, morphology, and syntax in situ. It is a labor of devotion to two of my most favorite texts: Homer’s Iliad, and Smyth’s Greek Grammar.

Three Quarrels (TQ) serves as the textbook of an online course offered on Google Hangouts. (Meeting 6 hours/week — using Pharr as a pace-horse but working predominately out of Smyth’s — participants reached the end of Book I of the Iliad in fourteen weeks.) A second iteration of the course will launch later this month, October 2014.

I had just returned home from a symposium at the University of Michigan — in honor of the recently deceased Kweku Garbrah — where I heard Martin West speak of his work on the text of the Iliad. I found on TextKit very useful (and very humbling) information about West’s approach and Homeric textual criticism in general. I very much look forward to engaging with the experts and scholars on this site — since I am, admittedly, something of a dilettante — and to helping novices progress in their ability and love of Homer, Greek, and Latin.

Two points from Professor West’s talk on his work in the Odyssey:

Odyssey I. 346-7
“Mother Dear, Why then do you grudge the trusty singer to sing in the way he pleases?”

μῆτερ ἐμή, τί τ’ ἄρα φθονέεις ἐρίηρον ἀοιδόν / τέρπειν ὅππηι οἱ νόος ὄρνυται;

In this passage West reads: τί ταρ αὖ, cf. 23. 264 δαιμονίη, τί ταρ αὖ με μάλ’ ὀτρύνουσα κελεύεις | εἰπέμεν· “Dear One, Why urging me so strongly do you bid me to speak?”

Professor West took exception to τ’ ἄρα. He considered it to be unacceptable as Greek — an unprecedented collocation of particles.

As entertaining as this was, the highlight of the talk was his assertion that by adopting μηδέ σφιν rather than μέγα δέ σφιν (at Odyssey 13. 158) He had saved an ancient peoples from destruction: namely, the Phaeacians from destruction by Poseidon as punishment for returning Odysseus to Ithaca. With the insertion of the negation Zeus forbids (rather than encourages) his brother to destroy them by covering their city with a mountain — Poseidon, the Earthshaker — god of earthquakes.

Welcome to Textkit! Homer is my great passion and I certainly look forward to have a new participant in our debates on all things Homer! I am myself literally a dilettante, since Homer is just a hobby for me, although an extremely time-consuming one. I am not completely sure what you mean by “humbling”, but as far as my own comments go, if some of them are a bit harsh, you should take that just as a demonstration of my passion…

I confess I’m a bit envious of you for being at that lecture of West’s. I’m eagerly waiting for his book on the Odyssey, which should be out any day now.

μῆτερ ἐμή, τί ταρ αὖ φθονέεις ἐρίηρον ἀοιδόν / τέρπειν ὅππηι οἱ νόος ὄρνυται;

That’s interesting. αὖ makes the tone pretty impatient, doesn’t it? It really changes the line. Or that’s how I see it. And read like this, μῆτερ ἐμή doesn’t seem very affectionate – I suppose the effect is about same as it would be in contemporary English to hear “Mother!” from the mouth of someone who almost always says “Mum”.

But of course, it’s a conjecture. I don’t remember exactly West’s arguments for ταρ, but I’m not even sure if it’s actually ever attested? The boldness of West’s corrections and bracketing is one thing we’ve discussed a lot here. It’s true, though, that τε doesn’t seem to serve any purpose on that line as transmitted, at least as far as I can see.

[EDIT: αὖ is not a conjecture, but actually an attested variant.]
[EDIT 2: I have actually serious trouble understanding the relevant line in the critical apparatus, so I started a new thread.]

As for μηδέ σφιν rather than μέγα δέ σφιν at Odyssey 13. 158 – certainly that’s a relief for many of us, not to speak of the Phaeacians! (you probably have read a recent post where we discussed this) μηδέ σφιν is the reading of Aristophanes, so this time it’s not a conjecture…

In a sense I did injustice to West’s talk, since NOTHING he put forth was “mere conjecture” — he offered good and full explanations of each of the bits on his handout.

I was “humbled” not so much by your remarks as by Qimmik’s long post detailing West’s treatment. I want to ask him for a few references for Parry’s work on Digamma — I own the Collected Papers but have not been able to satisfactory locate the discussion Qimmik (and Greg Nagy in a personal conversation) refer to.

I am happy to see that TextKit has a preference for Pharr’s Homeric Greek.

I am very glad to have discovered this community. And look forward to interacting with its members.

WMR

Oh yes, and by the way, West took the αὖ to mean “once again”.

Just like when Hera reproaches Zeus for habitual “daring to think for himself” :stuck_out_tongue:

τίς δὴ αὖ τοι, δολομῆτα, θεῶν ξυμφράσσατο βουλάς;

Βοοκ Ι. 540

WMR

P. S. West also explained that when he marked a passage with obelisks, his purpose was really to direct serious scholars to take a look and reconsider — his purpose was to highlight spots of potential controversy, not to decide the controversy. He struck me as a pretty humble guy who would not go around striking lines just on his own authority. His main objection to Allen’s text was that Allen in his apparatus treated and reported “families” of manuscripts. West really just is aiming to create a more meaty critical apparatus, one that is more SPECIFIC and detailed than Allen’s.

Walter, what post of mine specifically are you referring to?

Is West working on an edition of the Odyssey (in addition to his forthcoming book on the subject)?

I’ve expressed reservations about his editions of the Iliad, perhaps too intemperately, but he is certainly the greatest Greek scholar of our times.

Bill

Bill,

It was your long post where you explained your reservations about West’s Iliad by elucidating his idiomatic stance about a fully literate Homer walking and talking around 650 BC. Likewise you situated W. alongside other work on Homer’s text. I found your explanation very satisfying and it cleared up a lot of what W. said during his talk — the fact that he generally does not recognize a pre-textual existence of “Homer”.

Yes, W. is at work on the Odyssey and it will come out in about 2016 he said. It will no doubt be very valuable because of the detail and quality of his critical apparatus. During the talk he fully explained, by contrast, what his edition will offer. He compared his with those of Ludwich (1889-91), West (1917-19) and P. Von der Mühll (1945). His remarks convinced me that his edition will be valuable to SUPER-experts; your remarks convinced me it is not indispensable to humbler sorts like myself. If Teubner ends up producing a not too expensive paperback of it, I will surely add it to my library. But my own preferred text is Bekker’s (1859) — just because I have a fascination with Digamma (however illicit in the eyes of West and Nagy) and enjoy thinking of the EARLIEST singers of heroic lay. (Since my work now is with inner-city Detroit youth who love nothing more than rap music and free composition, I think I have a better appreciation than people like West and Nagy as to just how poetic and sophisticated relatively “illiterate” persons can be with a type of beat and a bunch of themes. In coming weeks I will be introducing Detroit 8th graders to the prosody of Homer, Hesiod, and Horace and encouraging them to use the concepts with which ancient poetry is analyzed to think about the music they are presently so devoted to. My end-goal is to find a couple who might actually begin to study Greek with me. Google: “Detroit Greek and Latin”)

I came within a hair of ordering Nagy’s “Homer’s Text and Language” (2004) after seeing that he goes toe-to-toe with West in that work. But in the end I restrained myself. I really don’t have time to read such things now. Perhaps I will buy it for myself as a Christmas present.

Tell me. Are you reading De Corona with a group right now? I just finished an online course teaching Pharr. We went from the alphabet to the end of Book I in about 14 weeks meeting 6 hours a week on Google Hangouts. I am trying to put together another such class to start in a couple weeks. It is tuition from these online classes that underwrites my work in the Detroit Public Schools which is rendered on a volunteer basis.

It is nice to have met your acquaintance, Bill. Tell me of yourself. Your educational background and present life situation.

WMRIII, PhD

I came within a hair of ordering Nagy’s “Homer’s Text and Language” (2004)

Walter, the West/Nagy controversy was conducted on line (with a contribution from Jean-Fabrice Nardelli) in the Bryn Mawr Classical Review, and I think the article in Nagy’s book is just a reprint of his review. You can read these exchanges here:

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2000/2000-09-12.html

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2001/2001-06-21.html

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2001/2001-09-06.html

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2004/2004-04-17.html

Bill