Greek Verbs

Greek Learning Greek
1

I have a few questions about verbs, because while writing my vocabulary / flashcard program, I have gotten quite a bit ahead of myself. So…

  1. Are there ANY verbs that have 1st person dual conjugations? Smyth and Betts & Henry give me the idea that there are not, but I want to make sure. Databases don’t handle exceptions very well, so if there are any verbs that have 1st person duals, I need to know about it.

  2. Following is a list of all possible combinations of voice, mood and tense in Greek verbs. Am I missing anything? Is there ANY verb that has a combination that I missed?

Thanks in advance.

ACTIVE VOICE

Present Indicative Active
Present Subjunctive Active
Present Optative Active
Present Imperative Active
Present Infinitive Active
Present Active Participle

Imperfect Indicative Active

Future Indicative Active
Future Optative Active
Future Infinitive Active
Future Active Participle

Aorist Indicative Active
Aorist Subjunctive Active
Aorist Optative Active
Aorist Imperative Active
Aorist Infinitive Active
Aorist Active Participle

Perfect Indicative Active
Perfect Subjunctive Active
Perfect Optative Active
Perfect Imperative Active
Perfect Infinitive Active
Perfect Active Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Active

MIDDLE VOICE

Present Indicative Middle
Present Subjunctive Middle
Present Optative Middle
Present Imperative Middle
Present Infinitive Middle
Present Middle Participle

Imperfect Indicative Middle

Future Indicative Middle
Future Optative Middle
Future Infinitive Middle
Future Middle Participle

Aorist Indicative Middle
Aorist Subjunctive Middle
Aorist Optative Middle
Aorist Imperative Middle
Aorist Infinitive Middle
Aorist Middle Participle

Perfect Indicative Middle
Perfect Subjunctive Middle
Perfect Optative Middle
Perfect Imperative Middle
Perfect Infinitive Middle
Perfect Middle Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Middle

PASSIVE VOICE

Present Indicative Passive
Present Subjunctive Passive
Present Optative Passive
Present Imperative Passive
Present Infinitive Passive
Present Passive Participle

Imperfect Indicative Passive

Future Indicative Passive
Future Optative Passive
Future Infinitive Passive
Future Passive Participle

Aorist Indicative Passive
Aorist Subjunctive Passive
Aorist Optative Passive
Aorist Imperative Passive
Aorist Infinitive Passive
Aorist Passive Participle

Perfect Indicative Passive
Perfect Subjunctive Passive
Perfect Optative Passive
Perfect Imperative Passive
Perfect Infinitive Passive
Perfect Passive Participle

Pluperfect Indicative Passive

Future Perfect Indicative Passive
Future Perfect Optative Passive
Future Perfect Infinitive Passive
Future Perfect Passive Participle

2

What about all the imperatives? I always learn them, too.

3

The imperatives are in the list… :slight_smile:

4

Hey Lex,

I actually think that the first person dual does crop up once or twice somewhere in Homer. But I will check when I get home.

I too have written this kind of vocabulary program. I would recommend that you allow for second aorists, second perfects, and second pluperfects.

Cordially,

Paul

5

:blush: didn’t see those imperatives…
You’ll also have to allow for two aorist mediums if you want to use for stupid verbs like istemi, too :stuck_out_tongue: .

6

Thanks.

Ok, this second aorist, etc., stuff is way beyond my level. So I need to ask some questions. Can a verb have both a first and a second aorist (perfect, pluperfect) form? Or is this something where a verb can fall into one category or the other, but not both?

7

I’m afraid there are some verbs that have two forms, like kalew’s future is either kalesw or kalw (sorry, just can’t be bothered with the greek font right now). Same with exw, it also has two different forms for the future.
Deidw’s perfect is either dedoika or dedia and euriskw’s perfect can be eurhka or hurhka (not a huge difference, though).
There are other examples…

8

Are they interchangable? Or are they used in different ways?

9

They are not usually interchangeable. Generally the first aorist (or perfect) will be transitive or causative and the second will be intransitive.

So ἔβην “I went”, but ἔβησα “I made (someone) go.”

Do you plan to focus on a particular dialect of Greek? There are some verbs that have three separate aorist forms in Epic. For example, κιχάνω “come upon, arrive at” has one first aorist ἐκιχησάμην, one thematic second aorist ἔκιχον, and one athematic (or root) aorist ἐκίχην.

Regarding the 1st.dual verb forms, Monro says there is one possible example in the Iliad (23.485), but it may be grammarians getting imaginative. West rejects it from his recent Iliad edition. I look forward to Paul’s report. Monro isn’t exactly current scholarship.

10

“Are they interchangable?”

At least, the meaning is the same. The heart of the matter is that the “second” forms are in principle OLDER than the “first” ones. “Second aorists” belong to a time were “I go” and “I went” were felt as different actions, expressed by different verbs. The “first” aorists appeared later, it is a more synthetic way of expression : e)poi/hsa “is still” the verb poie/w.

11

Hi Gang,

William, I am charmed at the prospect of ‘my report’. Monro is the very source I was thinking of earlier in the day! The only thing I can add is that Smyth does mention 3 poetic forms of 1st person dual, including the form named by Monro.

For Lex’s purpose, I’d say ignore this form. That’s what I’ve done in my program.

Cordially,

Paul

P.S. - I love Monro. He may not be current, but he often has interesting insights and analyses that I’ve not seen in other grammars.

12

sigh This language is immense. I didn’t quite know what I was getting myself into.

Anyhow, I suppose I should deal with them as separate forms, not as variations of the same form.

I plan on focusing on classical Attic, but I want the program to be generic enough that other people can use it.

Hmmm… OK, in another post, 2nd aorists, perfects and pluperfects were mentioned. Now you mention an athematic (root) aorist. Are there also athematic perfects and pluperfects? And in what voices and moods do any of these tenses apply? In short, how should I extend that huge list that I posted earlier?

One possible example? Whew! No 1st person dual in my program.

All this help is greatly appreciated. (That goes out to everyone who has responded, not just William.)

13

Hi Lex,

It is immense, but take heart.

Two of the aorists William points out ( ἐκίχην, ἐκίχον ) are 2nd aorist indicative active. It might be best for your program to treat one as a variant form of the other.

Cordially,

Paul

14

Now I wish I had a copy of Sihler. I should put that on my wishlist and he and Denniston can snuggle for a while.

For Lex’s purpose, I’d say ignore this form.

I would agree.

P.S. - I love Monro. He may not be current, but he often has interesting insights and analyses that I’ve not seen in other grammars.

True, and my copy gets a lot of work, but some things make more sense in light of more recent dialect discoveries, especially the Mycenaean stuff.

15

I think any sort of program that has to think about a highly inflecting language is going to be a bit vexing. I cannot imagine what the database structures Perseus uses look like.

Hmmm… OK, in another post, 2nd aorists, perfects and pluperfects were mentioned. Now you mention an athematic (root) aorist. Are there also athematic perfects and pluperfects?

Perfects and pluperfects are basically only athematic, though this is most obvious in the middle.

And in what voices and moods do any of these tenses apply? In short, how should I extend that huge list that I posted earlier?

I’m not sure a list is the best approach. Though I must admit that my brain starts to itch when I try to think about it usefully. :slight_smile:

I don’t know how you’re programming this and what your data structures are looking like, but I think I’d go for a verb analysis encoding that has slots for all the possible variations, one byte each:

|tense|voice|mood|person|number|…dialect note?|…?

And then file each form under a head-word (like in a dictionary), which would allow you to keep track of the fact that 1) the future of φέρω is οἴσω, and 2) that the Attic aorist is ἤνεγκα and the Epic one is ἤνεικα, as well as 3) allow the possibility of including the periphrastic perfect forms (participle + εἰμί).

Just some thinking from a Unix geek.

16

I agree with Paul.
A lanuage is a whole world. If you cannot be a citizen, you could at least be a traveller in it. I’m only a beginner but never lost my heart.

17

I was considering that. All I would have to do is make the fields long enough to accomodate several variations, separated by commas or something. But if they are used differently, then I am not sure that’s the best approach, from the user’s point of view.

You say that both of the above words are 2nd aorist. William said that one was 2nd (thematic) aorist, and the other was athematic (root) aorist. So the athematic (root) aorist is a form of 2nd aorist? :confused:

18

Yes!

Well, yes as far as most grammars are concerned. The new Oxford Greek grammar locates the root aorists separately. I go into some of the details in the Aorist morphology tutorial on this very site. :slight_smile:

Aorist Morphology.

19

Well, since I have a database already at my disposal, I decided to flatten the five byte-long codes you mention into the list I presented earlier (except that my list actually includes every combination of person and number as well), in a separate support table. Then I have a table with the headwords in it, as you suggested. So λύω, for instance, would have an entry in the headword table. Another table, the conjugation table, would have all the possible conjugations of λύω, each of which would point back to the headword table, and would also have a field with a number pointing to a row in the support table, indicating that this particular conjugation is perfect subjunctive active, 3rd person plural, or whatever. By flattening your codes into one support table, I only need to keep one extra field in the conjugation table. Also, the support table will already have the name of the conjugation completely spelled out; no further coding necessary.

I’m still more than a bit confused about all this 2nd this and root that business. I know that if I just put in the time and study more, I will eventually get it, but that means further delaying the finish of my program, which was intended to help me to study more! A classical Catch 22. Perhaps I will just have to leave my design as it is now (not taking into consideration 2nd this and that), and hope that incorporating them into my design later doesn’t break anything too badly.

20

Wow, it seems like a lot of classical greek enthusiasts are programmers (myself included).

There is a piece of software out there that fully conjugates classical greek verbs, you may want to look at it for some ideas.

Its called Kalos

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/8851/