Hi all.
I’m now on the 2nd story in the book.
The pied piper.
A few sentences are causing me trouble:
Tibicinem fallam, et mures exibunt, nec quidquam pecuniae solvemus
Undecima hora cives per fenestras perspexerunt.
Why “per” twice?
Omnes mures secuti sunt et in flument ruerunt.
Cum autem nos iuveris tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus
Any help would be appreciated.
David
Hey David,
perspicere is de werkwoordelijke vorm en wordt geconstrueerd met een voorzetselconstructie per + acc. Het betekent dus ‘door het raam kijken’. De vertaling wordt dus: ‘Ik zal de fluitspeler om de tuin leiden, en de muizen zullen naar buiten komen en wij zullen geen enkele cent betalen (=niet iets van geld uitgeven). Om elf uur keken de burgers door de vensters.’
Bij de tweede passus klinkt de vertaling als volgt:’ Alle muizen zijn gevolgd en hebben zich in de stroom gestord (Flument is toch een typefout voor flumen niet?). Wanneer je ons evenwel zal geholpen hebben, zullen we je 50 denariën geven.’
Ik hoop dat deze letterlijke vertalingen je ietwat vooruit hebben geholpen. At least I think you were Dutch speaking, isn’t it? Otherwise I’ll translate it.
Cura ut valeas! Moerus.
Perhaps you could tell us exactly what problems you’re having with these sentences, or give us the translations you’ve come up with for them?
By the way, I assume “flument” in your next to last sentence is meant to be “flumen”?
I lived in Holland for a year.
Can read your post with effort, based on my German
(We live near Munich)
Tibicinem fallam, et mures exibunt, nec quidquam pecuniae solvemus
The fluter player ??, and the mice ??, nor no money will we pay out
Undecima hora cives per fenestras perspexerunt.
I though this was perhaps English speakers translating into Latin with English thought “look through the window”.
perspectere itself means “to look through”.
Shouldn’t it be cives fenestras perspexerunt. ?
Omnes mures secuti sunt et in flument ruerunt.
All the mice were ?? and in the river ??.
Cum autem nos iuveris tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus
Is iuveris the past tense of iudare?
Shouldn’t there be a comma after iuveris?
i.e.
Cum autem nos iuveris, tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus Is Thanks for you help.
David
Thanks for you help.
Well, here’ a bit to get you going.
Tibicinem fallam, et mures exibunt, nec quidquam pecuniae solvemus
The fluter player ??, and the mice ??, nor no money will we pay out
What tense are “fallam” (from fallo, fallere), “exibunt” (from “exeo, exire”) and “solvemus”? Who is the subject of each?
Undecima hora cives per fenestras perspexerunt.
I though this was perhaps English speakers translating into Latin with English thought “look through the window”.
perspectere itself means “to look through”.
Shouldn’t it be cives fenestras perspexerunt. ?
Quite often in Latin the preposition and the prefix to the verb are both used.
Omnes mures secuti sunt et in flument ruerunt.
All the mice were ?? and in the river ??.
“Secuti sunt” is perfect tense of sequor - a deponent verb. “Ruerunt” comes form “ruo, ruere”.
Cum autem nos iuveris tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus
Is iuveris the past tense of iudare?
“Iuveris” is the future perfect tense of “iuvo, iuvare”. It is a syncope (shortening) of “iuvaveris”. It’s usually renedred as present tense in English especily in a cum clause or condition.
Shouldn’t there be a comma after iuveris?
i.e.
Cum autem nos iuveris, tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus
In English, yes. In Latin…well, classical Latin didn’t have commas or much punctuation at all. However, that’s another topic entirely. You can find information about that in previous posts.
Magistra
Well I repeat, but this time I will give a possible English translation of the sentences:
Tibicinen fallam et mures exibunt nec quidquam pecuniae solvemus.
I will mislead / deceive the fluteplayer and the mice will come out en we will not pay any penny (= and we will not pay anything of money).
Undecima hora cives per fenestras perspexerunt.
At eleven o’ clock the citizens looked through the windows.
In Latin every verb had his possible constructions in fact. These constructions may also differ from period to period. In classical Latin, wich the modern author of this work mostly followed, the normal construction with perspicere is to use also the preposition before the accusative. For these usual constructions of the classical period, you should check, Menge, Repetitorium der lateinischen Syntax und Stilistik or Menge, Lehrbuch der lateinischen Syntax und Semantik. Btw they are auf Deutch, so that wouldn’t be a real problem for you. Only the Repetitorium is the older version and is in Gothic writing, the Lehrbuch is the newer version and is in normal writing. But pay attention these are really advanced books, easy to check some things and easy cause they have a lot of good and advanced translations from German to Latin, but it’s really advanced stuff and it would only scare people that are starting with Latin. I don’t know your case, so you should see a bit for yourself. But according to me these are the best books to study advanced Latin. By the way there is also Menge, Lateinische Synonymik that gives the little differences between words as videre, cernere, speculari, perspicere, … and also a bit their constructions.
Omnes mures secuti sunt et in flument ruerunt.
All the mice followed and rushed down into the river.
Cum autem nos iuveris, tibi quinquaginta denarios dabimus.
But when you will (have) help(ed) us, we will give you fifty denarii.
Iuveris is future perfect or futurum exactum of iuvare.
I fixed the interpunction like it should be by a modern editor!
Cura ut valeas (valeatis omnes),
Philippus Moerus
Those look fine to me!