English-to-Latin Blues

Latin Learning Latin
1

Hi all…

I have been struggling lately with my English-to-Latin skills. I think out of learning Latin, this has to be one of the more difficult hurdles…and frankly I get quite frustrated. For instance, the other day, I was simply trying to use a verb to represent the English “to think” and then “to know.” English allows incredible diversity in using these words…and honing into the proper Latin verb on the fly is tough…very tough, at least for me. Working through English colloquialisms only adds to the nightmare…especially since native English speakers, like myself, tend to not even realize that they’re using them.

Here’s a more concrete example that I battled with for at least an hour yesterday: In his Christmas homily, the pope used the sentence “These words touch our hearts every time we hear them.” It took me most of the hour just to recognize that an ablative absolute construction can make the task easier, so I eventually wrote down (after numerous other attempts) “His verbis auditis.” Then, I was not 100% certain how to represent “every time.” I looked up the usage of “quandocumque” in my OLD and it seemed to be the proper word, though I think that, in English, there is a difference between saying “every time” and “whenever.” Then in re-reading the section on the ablative absolute in my M&F, I got the impression that the construction alone can suggest “every time.” Whether it can or can’t or whether another word is necessary, I’m still unsure.

So, with “Hi verbis auditis” down on the page, I struggled with the remainder of the sentence. “Touch our hearts” is a metaphor/colloquialism…but it seemed, at least from my handheld dictionary, that Latin had a similar construction. I knew from reading that “turbare” or “perturbare” was a great verb for when something upsets us, but as for an antonym, I was at a loss. “Movere” seemed a little too literal but the OLD said (with a quote from Livy) that it was okay to use “movere” as a substitute for the English “moves” with the suggestion of sentimentality. So, I tried working with “anima nostra movere” and also “cordi esse (+ dat.)” which was the suggestion from the handheld dictionary. I finally picked the latter more out of frustration then anything else.

Finally: “His verbis auditis cordi sunt nobis.” Very simple and to the point but not translated with enough certainty to make me not want to ask about it here. I later stumbled on other time-related phrases, like “It was at that time” (Erat illo tempore) and “this was the moment” (illo tempore).

Anyone else find translating English-to-Latin difficult? Anyone else find a good way of coping? I’m guessing you get better at it with time. Perhaps I just think/talk in too many colloquialisms. I have no trouble handing the simple stuff: “Caesar went to Gaul. Caesar fought the Gauls. Caesar triumphed in Rome.” But as soon as I start trying to translate my own natural thoughts or speeches as mentioned above delivered in a more natural tone, I get lost.

Oh well, I guess this is what vodka is for. :open_mouth:

Best to all,
Chris

2

Salve, cdm2003!

Yes, it is quite a difficult task. In fact, in my studies as a translator I’ve learned that it’s not enough to know 2 languages to be able to translate between them. You have to know how to think in the source and target languages. I’ve seen English to Spanish translations supposedly made by translators with a college education that are just horrible or at least very awkward. Until you know how to think in Latin, I’m afraid translation is always going to be troublesome. But don’t worry, you are not alone. I’m in the same boat. Even though I finished Lingua Latina (the best method), I still cannot think in Latin, but this is because I didn’t bother to read out loud and/or make audio recordings to better comprehend the lessons. So I guess there’s no other way than just keep reading. I’ve given myself 2 more years to really master Latin. How about you?

Vale!

3

Salve!

Well, perhaps you’ve pinpointed the main difficulty. I’ve gone through the first volume of LL and am now on chapter XXXVIII of the second. Reading those books makes Latin seem like a breeze, but the minute I sit down and start trying to think or freely write in Latin, I start getting frustrated. What’s worse, is that the frustration then makes me doubt what I already know and at that point, I’m triple-checking conjugations, declensions, etc. The only sort of composition I’ve found easy is summarizing passages…perhaps because, as you’ve said, the reading of the passage gets you thinking about the ideas in Latin. For example, when I ready the LL chapter which contained the story of Arion, I closed the book and summarized the story. It was a cinch. But anything else for me, now, is just tough.

I’ve given myself until the day I die to master Latin. When I finish both LLs, it’s on to the readers in the series and then I have a small set of the Latin books I intend to read (Cicero’s letters to Atticus, Caesar, Lucretius, Suetonius, and of course, Vergil). I have a copy of a volume of “Arbor Vitae” by Ubertino of Cassale that I want to be able to sit down and read without the use of a dictionary or paleographic abbreviation tables. I’d also like to be able to compose Latin poetry (no matter how bad) without reference materials as well. I will keep working on it on my death-bed if I have to. :smiley: Dum anima est, spes est!

Thanks for the support…not that I wish it to be difficult for you…it’s just nice to know I’m not alone.

Vale!

4

Instead of translating literally, why not also use colloquialisms? You can use commovere to suggest being moved (touched our hearts), so that, still following your example, perhaps verbis/dictis auditis (lack the his) commovebamus. (With these words having been heard, we were moved.)

Also, make sure you realize what you’re reading. The differences between the various stages of Latin are not as pronounced as the dialects in Greek, but they exist nonetheless. Composing in Ciceronian Latin, Caesarian Latin, and Suetonian Latin will all be different, and the poets themselves have their own particular style.

5

Salutem tibi dico, cdm:

I’ve gone through the first volume of LL and am now on chapter XXXVIII of the second.

Now with that extra information, I can tell you that you will need to get more acquainted with the classics to be able to write freely in (or translate from) Latin. If you start to find the lessons in parte secunda to be difficult, just wait… wait until you read Livy and Cicero! :laughing: You’ll wanna go back in time and give Cicero a good smack in the back of the head. :laughing:

Also, if you really put the effort into Lingua Latina, I’m pretty sure you’ll master Latin way before you die. :wink:

Vale!

6

I have found that reading how modern writers express themselves really helps with my own writing. The GREX is good for this.

I still cannot think in Latin, but this is because I didn’t bother to read out loud and/or make audio recordings to better comprehend the lessons.

The writer is right on target! Reading aloud and listening to recorded passages is the an optimal way to get you thinking in the target language. I don’t know why the LL franchise didn’t make recordings of the whole series.

7

Dum laborabam profusus sudore in machinis quibus utimur ut adeps qui inhaeret veteribus in lateribus minuatur mihi sequens sententia occurrit:

These words touch our hearts everytime we hear them

Quotiensque ea accipimus haec verba funditus afficiunt corda nostra.

vel

Quotiensque haec accipimus verba corda dulce commoventur.

8

And also can’t you classically say… Nonnè quoque modo classico sic dicere licet:
“Haec verba cum audiuntur semper cor nobis tangunt.”
You’re right that confidence is reinforced by remembering what was heard and understood. Not that I talk or write confidently! But things are slowly getting better, hopefully. Isn’t practice in communication the key? And a great start is reading aloud and talking aloud to oneself, as you say. It’s also a lot easier to talk than to listen, but you need to master both to communicate. One ought to give more time to listening. It’s not easy without appropriate opportunities and learning resources.
Rectè dicitis, meliùs recordamur quae audimus intellegimusque et proindè confisio nobis augeat. At egomet cum confidentiâ neque loquor neque scribo, sed res lentè satius fiunt, ut spero! Exercitatio communicandi clavis est, nonné? Benè incipit qui clarè legit atque sibi ipsi loquerit magnâ vel vivâ voce, ut dicite. Etiam artem loquendi faciliùs tenere est quam artem auscultandi; ambae tamen in communicando necessariae sunt. Opus est majorem partem exercitationum auscultando dare. Facile non est sinè occasionibus atque auxiliis paedagogicis appositisque.

9

I am by no means proficient yet. However I have found that the method that works for me is to write or type out each chapter and grammar section of LL. In addition I read the chapter out loud and do the exercises in the workbook. Between the three methods I think I am beginning to acquire a handle on the language.

I think that the listening also plays an important role. However I wish I could find a vocabulary card-list with pictures instead of English words. I plan to when I finish the first book of LL. to begin to keep a journal in Latin. However I realized I wasn’t getting the full use out of the books and so I had to go back and re-start. so it will be a while.

10

Salve, Turendil!

You are right on the money as far as making the most with Lingua Latina. However, I strongly advice you to finish LL2 and then begin to keep a journal. While the grammar in LL1 is fairly sufficient, you won’t be able to “think” in Latin yet, until you battle with the Classics in the second book. Trust me on this one. :wink:

11

Te hoc dicere gaudeo, quoniam primum Linguae Latinae liber saepe finitus est, quamquam certe latine cogitare non possum. Spero erga uerba tua!

12

London, 15 January, 2008.

Dear Chris,

I read your note with interest. Translation is a thorny problem. I have a suggestion to make that you may find helpful, in the long term. Before heading into the wilds of translation, I think paraphrasing from Latin into Latin is valuable as a precursor activity - until you can do that very well, you won’t IMHO be able to translate well.

Take a Latin text, is my advice, and re-write it in Latin in a totally different way, but still giving over the same information as the original. Do this often.

This will get you thinking in Latin. Keep a journal in Latin as well - something no-one else is intended to read, so you don’t have to worry too much about getting things absolutely right, just express yourself as best as you can. Just write and write (and write). Between the reading/learning grammar and writing and reading, and speaking if at all possible, you will start to think in Latin.

All translation is paraphrase anyway. The Roman mind does not see the world in the same way as the English mind. This is why learning any language is such a valuable experience. To do it well, you need to think like a Roman.

Personally, I’m no-where near there yet. Per ardua ad astra, or something like that.

Best wishes,


Evan.

13

Keeping a Latin journal sounds good to me, and I’ll start doing that.

For what it’s worth, 16th century Latinist/teacher Roger Ascham professed the method of “double translation.” He would have the student translate Cicero into English and then back into Latin, and then compare the original and the new composition in order to cultivate Ciceronian style. I’d like to try my hand at this with an easier author perhaps.

14

Much agreed. I’ve realized over the past two weeks that the grammar I learned in LL-I (come on, Amadeus, Roman numerals here! :slight_smile: ) is really seen in action in LL-II. Though, I must say, I miss the hilarious hijinks of Marcus. :smiley:

Isn’t that the State Motto of Kansas? :wink:

Valete!

15

I just think starting Latin composition after just 1 year of (unClassical) Latin is getting ahead of oneself. At this stage there’s still a tendency to write latin with the syntax of one’s mother tongue. You have to infuse yourself with Cicero and Livy et alii to really get a handle on the language. What I think would be more reasonable is to re-arrange the Classical texts or make a summary of what you’ve learned from them, because, in this way, you have the original as the standard in front of your eyes. You don’t have that in free composition. But, hey, maybe this is just me. :wink:

Vale!

P.S.: And, yes, I did miss the comedy stylings of young Marcus. :slight_smile: