Likewise, would Romans finish Ovid’s Metamorphoses or Vergil’s Aeneid cover to cover? Seems that we modern students of Latin are too used to abridged texts, which might be due to the fact that Latin is not our mother tongue and it’s pretty much unrealistic to be expected to achieve competence in the language as Romans did even after years of learning.
As someone who has done it, I can attest that Livy and Tacitus “cover to cover” isn’t unrealistic.
The Aeneid too, but I haven’t yet read all of Virgil’s works for lack of interest. I’ll get around to it when I finish up Cicero.
Hi Nesrad-
can you say how long you studied, and how you studied, to get to the point where you could ready these texts “cover to cover”? thanks!
At least cover to cover with sizeable chunks missing out of the middle, you mean.
To answer your question (sort of), Sydney, manuscripts didn’t have covers in the ordinary sense until the advent of the codex, and in ancient times, when the scroll was the default book format, only small portions of long works such as those written by Livy or Tacitus would typically be contained within a single “volume”.
In your opinion, how would you comment on the significance of Livy and Tacitus in historiography? Where did you find their respective complete Latin editions (probably with critical apparatus)? Could you also introduce some additional readings on Tacitean and Livy studies?
Did Romans read Livy or Tacitus cover to cover?
I dont understand why you should ask such a question. What on earth would you do with the answer? are you interested in Roman education?
I expect the answer is that as most people were engaged in subsistence farming in the Roman world very few people had the time to read for pleasure. The standard work is Ancient Literacy by William V. Harris. My suspicion is that there are more scholars studying classics now than before (simply on the grounds that there has been in the last 100 years a huge increase in the number of higher education institutions).
As Victor implies the Romans certainly had more materials to read than we do but I expect of what remains it is more widely disseminated around the world and certainly much easier to access than even 20 years ago.
After acquiring basic grammar via Wheelock (I don’t remember how long, maybe 6 months or so), I had to read lots of intermediary texts, like the Vulgate, Lhomond, Avellanus, etc. And a few student editions of the classics with lots of notes, like Cicero’s speeches and Caesar. This intermediary period lasted a long time, maybe 5 years, because I was very busy studying in an altogether unrelated field. I remember at one point trying to read Tacitus, and being stunned to see that I couldn’t understand any of it. I just returned to easier texts. Much later, when I attempted straight-up Livy, it was extremely challenging. It took a lot of determination, but after the first two or three books of Livy things started to get easier and I was looking up words less often. I remember puzzling over passages for 10, 15 or more minutes before grasping the meaning. Quite often I was forced to refer to a translation, but only after giving it my very best effort. Using this method, after the first decade of Livy I was actually able to read the classics. I went on to read pretty much all the major prose authors. For poetry, because of a lack of interest in anything else, I have read only the Aeneid, aside from selections from other poets now and then. In later Latin, I’ve also read much of Augustine and some of Jerome, but I find late Latin is less satisfying. These authors tend to get caught up in ridiculous digressions, like one time when Augustine staring rambling about someone who made music by farting, or as often happens, they go on and on about the meaning of a passage of scripture.
My immediate goal is to finish up reading all of Cicero. I’m currently reading De Finibus. Some passages are among the most difficult I’ve encountered, not because of the Latin, but because of the subject matter and the obscure style employed in these passages, where Cicero portrays Cato speaking about Stoicism. I think he purposely made it unintelligible. When Cicero intervenes after Cato’s talk, he comments on how Stoics speak poorly, while politely reassuring Cato that he spoke quite well. He then goes on to expose the Academecian views in a orator’s style, commenting on how great ideas need to be exposed using a great style. I still consult a translation from time to time, usually to make sure I’ve understood a difficult passage, and in some cases when I absolutely cannot grasp the meaning. When this happens, the translation is usually not very helpful, because the translator, who had to deal with the same problem, offers a creative translation or a paraphrase of the general meaning.
In my opinion, Livy is a good place to start, because it worked for me. You’ll need to have a translation handy, but do all you can to avoid using it. Use the Elementary Latin Dictionary, as it only has words from the major authors, so you won’t spend as much time scanning entries. It’s a great dictionary for school authors like Livy. Very often you’ll find the very phrase you’re puzzling over in one of the examples.
I’m not a Classicist, just an amateur Latinist, and I haven’t studied these authors in any way other than reading their works, without any commentaries.
I read them in older Oxford editions ordered cheap on ABE from Great Britain most of the time, about $10 a volume. I rarely used the apparatus, only when it could help elucidate the meaning. I’ve noticed that copyists often introduce “corrections” in order to clear up a difficult passage. A perhaps better source for casual readers like myself is the Delphin editions, except you have to read them electronically.
I don’t recommend using Loebs unless the student has extremely strong will power and is able to resist glancing at the next page every time he encounters a difficulty. This can keep him from developing the still of resolving the meaning himself, something that comes only with lots of practice. Besides, Loebs are expensive and take up a lot of space on the bookshelf.