Salve Amadeus,
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“qua” I think refers to “Aquileia” - “from where it was the nearest trip to Ulterior Gaul through the Alps.”
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“fugae” I think is indeed dative, the rest gave/committed themselves to flight into the nearest woods where they hid.
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Very confusing passage, the more so as it is re-written. I think however that ipse, ipsius and eum all refer to Caesar.
Funny - I read this thread earlier this morning (unable to post because there was a temporary problem with my account) and then read locos ipsos in the Caesar comic book that benignissimus Interaxus sent me. Highly recommended!
David
Amadeus Kasperi salutem dicit,
- Very confusing passage, the more so as it is re-written. I think however that ipse, ipsius and eum all refer to Caesar.
See, here’s what troubles me. If all those pronouns refer to Caesar, how is it that Caesar didn’t hear of his own adventus?
And then there’s this further down the same paragraph:
Multo die per exploratores Caesar cognovit et montem a suis teneri et Helvetios castra movisse et Considium timore perterritum quod non vidisset > pro viso > sibi nuntiavisse.
Because he hadn’t seen what was seen [pro viso] by the exploratores?
Man, I’m getting fed up with constantly looking at words in the dictionary at the back of Collar and Daniell’s. How I miss learning new words by simple context and rarely looking for the actual translated meaning in a dictionary.
Vale!
Hmmm… Where to start?
Prima luce, cum summus mons a Labieno teneretur, ipse ab hostium castris mille passuum abesset, neque (ut postea ex captivis intellexit) aut ipsius aut Labieni cognitus esset, Considius equo admisso ad eum properavit.
As far as all the “-self”, etc. words go, here’s my take on them:
“ipse” he (Caesar) himself
“ipsius” his (Caesar’s)
“eum” him (Caesar)
The fuller quote from the Latin Library is here:
Prima luce, cum summus mons a [Lucio] Labieno teneretur, ipse ab hostium castris non longius mille et quingentis passibus abesset, neque, ut postea ex captivis comperit, aut ipsius adventus aut Labieni cognitus esset, Considius equo admisso ad eum accurrit, dicit montem, quem a Labieno occupari voluerit, ab hostibus teneri: id se a Gallicis armis atque insignibus cognovisse. Caesar suas copias in proximum collem subducit, aciem instruit.
The context helps a bit as to who did what.
I hope this helps. If you need more help, please ask.
Magistra
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2006 15:35 Post subject:
Amadeus Kasperi salutem dicit,Quote:
3. Very confusing passage, the more so as it is re-written. I think however that ipse, ipsius and eum all refer to Caesar.
See, here’s what troubles me. If all those pronouns refer to Caesar, how is it that Caesar didn’t hear of his own adventus?And then there’s this further down the same paragraph:
Quote:
Multo die per exploratores Caesar cognovit et montem a suis teneri et Helvetios castra movisse et Considium timore perterritum quod non vidisset pro viso sibi nuntiavisse.
Because he hadn’t seen what was seen [pro viso] by the exploratores?
I think I’m going out on a limb here, but here goes:
Considius was scared bigtime and he reported “what he had not seen instead of what he had seen (instead of what had been seen by himself).”
He told the big guy what he wanted to hear?? Considius was really mixed up? Considius was so scared that he didn’t really know what he was seeing/reporting/etc.?
Ideas/ Comments??
I think Considius was a “good guy” but messed up in this circumstance.
–Magistra
Salvete Amadeus Magistraque,
I think that we should not overlook the captivis reference. Caesar’s and Labienus’ adventus was not known to who? As he later learned from the captivi, it wasn’t known to the enemy.
Perhaps the long “cum” clause adds to the confusion. If the line read:
(1) cum mons a Labieno tenetur,
(2) cum ipse ab hostium castris non long[e] abesset,
(3) cum neque ipsius adventus aut labieni cognitus esset ut postea ex captivis comperit,
(4) [when all this is going on, at that time:] Considius equo admisso ad eum accurrit.
Re the second line I think Magistra is spot on with his/her(?) translation. It seems poor old Considius was indeed shit scared and didn’t dare to go close enough to the Gauls to really see what was going on. Good help is hard to get.
Based on the comic book, Considius reported that the Helvetii were holding the mountain, when in fact it was Labienus’ forces. This error in judgment, perhaps brought on by fear (perterritum), allows the Helvetii to move their camp and thus escape Caesar’s tactically stronger position.
And yeah, all the ipse and eum pronouns are tricky here. I think it should be noted that languages sometimes are ambiguous and that writers sometimes are sloppy. Maybe a fluent Roman would not be confused by the pronoun use here, but I tend to think that it’s the structure of the sentence that’s at fault. Like this: “My brother told his friend that he was a clever guy.” Who is the he? Context, context. And sometimes context won’t even help.
David
Salve Amadi,
(Hope I got the vocative right – I based it on the solution sought and found in a recent thread by Lucus Eques).
May I promote an excellent Latin site called Textkit? (Kudos to whoever started it!) Just download Caesar’s Gallic War Commentaries by Rev. Dr. Giles (a word-for-word translation) and all will be revealed! Doesn’t cost a penny.
Note especially: cognitus esset = had become known.
And Bellumpaxque, glad to hear the Comic-Book Caesar made it to you over there in Korea so quickly. That must be a record even for a guy famed for his forced marches. A fun approach, no?
Cheers
Int
(Sad footnote: if only all war tales could have ended with Caesar - or at the very latest with Tolstoy)
Interaxus,
A very fun approach! You can read my full response(and thanks) on the other board.
Regards,
David
Just wanted to give thanks to all those who helped. I havent’ had much chance to browse the forum lately (stupid day job!). And thank you Interaxus for your suggestion. It had occured to me, but I think I’m leaving that as a last resort (feels like cheating). Btw, no need to download a 7MB pdf file; Caesar’s Gallic War is online with lots of useful cross-references: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Caes.+Gal.+1.1
Thanks for reminding me of the existence of that magnificent site!
Int