I bring a little puzzle from the Phaedrus about δίδωμι.
Take 270e: ἀλλὰ δῆλον ὡς, ἄν τῴ τις τέχνῃ λόγους διδῷ
I give the (tortured) half-translation: “But it seems clear that whoever shall διδῷ their logoi over to(??) the art …”
Nehamas/Woodruff translate it as: “On the contrary, it is clear that someone who teaches another to make speeches as an art …”
A similar construction occurs in 271a: δῆλον ἄρα ὅτι ὁ Θρασύμαχός τε καὶ ὃς ἂν ἄλλος σπουδῇ τέχνην ῥητορικὴν διδῷ
Tortured: “Thus, it is clear that Thrasymachus and any other man who διδῷ the rhetorical art over to(??) their serious attention …”
N/W: “Clearly, therefore, Thrasymachus and anyone else who teaches the art of rhetoric seriously …”
Some notes about this operation:
I genuinely don’t believe Soc. means “teaching” (for money) by διδῷ; if anything, it would be a kind of ‘freely providing’ the knowledge to others, but I still don’t believe that entirely (cf. end of 271b-271c).
Given that skepticism, I’m trying to finesse διδῷ into a classic ‘give X to Y’ format. I see διδῷ as meaning something like “entrust their speeches to the art of dialectic,” or “give this art over to their studies.”
I’m aware that treating σπουδῇ as a dative noun rather than the common adverb is awkward.
I have no clue where N/W get “another” out of 270e’s “teaches another to make speeches.”
Is there a possibility of this alternative working, or am I barking up the wrong tree? Thanks in advance!
The τῳ in the first isn’t τῇ (or τῷ), and doesn’t go with τέχνῃ (which is used to mean “by art”?). In the second, σπουδῇ is used as adverb.
On the other hand, I’m not sure how they get “teach to make speeches” from διδῷ λόγους. I would have thought that λόγους was just the direct object. Give reasons/speeches by art. But I’m not really sure.
In the second, the τέχνην ῥητορικὴν looks like a direct object, and I assume the mental image is that of Thrasymachus giving the art to another as a possession, ie., teaching.
270e ἀλλὰ δῆλον ὡς, ἄν τῴ τις τέχνῃ λόγους διδῷ …
αν = εαν “if”
“But no, it’s clear that if someone (τις) gives someone (τῳ = τινί, N/W’s “another”) words (i.e. teaches rhetoric) with techne (i.e. professional skill) ….”
271a δῆλον ἄρα ὅτι ὁ Θρασύμαχός τε καὶ ὃς ἂν ἄλλος σπουδῇ τέχνην ῥητορικὴν διδῷ …
“Then it’s clear that T. and whoever else offers/imparts rhetorical techne (i.e. the art of rhetoric) seriously …”
So, “giving logoi to someone by means of techne” is comfortably idiomatic for N/W’s “teaching rhetoric”? That makes sense. I’m surprised that ignoring a missing circumflex led me down such a weird path …
I’m glad it makes sense to the two of you, because it doesn’t to me, and I couldn’t find a similar usage. Lots of διδόναι λόγον for giving an account διδόναι λόγους for giving reasons, speeches, etc. But I couldn’t find anything similar to this.
Maybe (but probably not) I could buy διδόναι λόγους being used for “to give [someone] [already prepared] speeches [to deliver]”, but “to give the ability to use words” seems quite the stretch, without similar examples.
Perhaps the closest example that I could find, directly from the LSJ, was “λόγον τινὶ δ. give one leave to speak, X.HG5.2.20”, but handing over speech to someone else seems different than handing over λόγους plural, and a different idiom regardless.
Maybe “give verbal tricks, phrasings”…but it doesn’t seem to jump out from the phrase.
In the context, I think this translation makes the most sense. Soc. is ultimately railing against the logographer Lysias, but is locally demeaning Pericles (whom Pl. believes did not write his own speeches). Thus, the full sentence from N/W:
— “On the contrary, it is clear that someone who teaches another to make speeches as an art will demonstrate precisely the essential nature of that to which speeches are to be applied.”
N/W are probably fudging something with “as an art” (I think it’s dat. of instrumentality), and “to make speeches” more closely means your “to deliver already prepared speeches,” not to craft them on their own. It mirrors the opening of the Protagoras, where Soc. is admonishing young Hippocrates not to trust the wares of sophists, as they themselves do not know which of their products harm and which benefit others.
Unless you think there’s another translation to be found here, in which case I will be happy to accept it.
Michael’s Greek is far better than mine, but if he’s discussing speechwriters rather than rhetoric teachers, then λόγους and τοὺς λόγους do make sense to me there as prepared speeches (crafted with his art), especially with a verb like “προσοίσει”, which suggests to me the idea of delivering them. However, take my opinion as a fellow beginner.
Yes λογους διδοναι in appropriate context, not necessarily in Plato, could readily mean “give (to a client) (text of ready prepared) speeches,” and I’d have suggested that if it weren’t for τεχνῃ (instrumental, yes), which can’t modify λογους but has to modify λογους διδῳ (so hardly “crafted with his art”)—bringing rhetorical training into the picture. I haven’t reread the passage but it looks rather loosely phrased, and I wouldn’t press it further.