Certain Latin Sounds

Avete, omnes!

I have a theory about a certain linguistic construction in Latin. I’m not convinced that gn is pronounced as two different sounds. For instance, how does one pronounce “Gnaeus”? Certainly not an ungainly sounding “g-nai” sound; I feel certain the Romans were above that. In modern English, we pronounced the word “gnome” as if the ‘g’ were silent. In fact, when pronounced correctly, it is not an ‘n’ sound but a velar nasal, such as in king, sing, bring.

Though this sound was also in Etruscan, it is an Indo-European sound, and is present as an independent consonant in Sanskrit. Here, for example, are the Sanskrit cosonants:

Each series of consonants (such as in Latin, the velar, dental, and labial; rextroflex and palatal stops don’t exist in Latin, of course) has its own corresponding nasal sound. p and b have m; t and d have n; and thus c and g ought to have a nasal too. This sound is readily present in German, as well as Sanskrit, and in German is represented by “-ng”, such as in the word singen. English has the same sound, familiar to us as “king,” “sing,” ring," “fling,” etcetera. This ‘-ng’ sound isn’t actually an ‘n’ or ‘g’ at all, but a velar nasal. Germanic languages spell this sound ‘-ng’ merely out of convention, even though it truly deserves a single character, as Sanskrit provides.

Now, back to “gnome” — the correct pronunciation is actually something like the sound between the words “running home,” if you don’t pronounce the ‘h’. The interesting thing is that this word is in fact from Latin — gnomus, meaning just the same little dwarf as the respective word in English. Logically, then, gnomus would have the same sort of pronunciation as the English word when said properly. Thus also, “Gnaeus” begins with the same sound. And so, a fortiori, magnus is truly pronounced something more like the anglicized spelling “mangus” would indicate.

That gn in Latin is pronounced in this way is reinforced by the Romance languages. In Italian and French, the two languages closest to the original Vulgar Latin, “gn” is pronounced like the Spanish ñ; for instance the Italian signore, the French magnifique, and so forth. This is a palatal sound, respective to the Sanskrit palatal nasal “ña” (quod vide supra). In Vulgar Latin, many sounds moved forward, a phonological change effected by the quicker, simpler speech of the vulgate. ci came to be pronounced as the “ch-” in “church,” and “gi” became “ji;” confer Latin celox and Italian cello, or Latin genus and Italian genera. (To be even more precise, velar stops move in the their placement within the mouth according to the vowel that follows them. The ‘k’ in “key,” for example, is actually much further forward than the ‘c’ in “coop.” And so all these forward velars melted further forward when ‘e’ or ‘i’ followed them, in Italian into palatals, and in French into sibilants.)

Let’s look at Italian again. gn, ce/ci, ge/gi are all palatals. If we reverse ce/ci and ge/gi into Latin, they become velar. If we apply the same philological reversal to gn, what was a palatal nasal in Italian becomes a velar nasal in Latin. From my perspective, to claim the sound was anything else would betray philology and linguistics alike.

hi lucus eques, i think you’re right, but isn’t that already the standard view in vox latina and other books? i’m genuinely asking; i’m not sure, i haven’t kept up. but a while ago i summarised the rules for reconstructed golden age latin phonology from the latest sources (the second doc on this page):

http://iliad.envy.nu

and i remember reading about the nasal n (and also the nasal “m” at the end of a word).

a word-initial consonant cluster gn would not be split over 2 syllables, i definitely agree, while the same cluster in the middle of a word would have the nasal sound followed by the “n” sound starting the next syllable (thus differentiating it from “nc”, “ng” and “nqu”, which also involved the nasal “n”)… did you read differently elsewhere? cheers, chad. :slight_smile:

They always told me magnus was REALLY pronounced with the velar nasal. But noone listened.

Well, that’s encouraging. :slight_smile: I guess that’s just how I’m going to pronounce it from now on.

As for that pdf, Chad, I don’t know if I can agree with its interpretation on some matters. Much like Sanskrit, singular accusative endings (-um, -am, -um, etc.), if we interpret that pdf correctly, are not actually 'm’s at all, but nasalizations of the vowels that precede them (such as a Frenchman would pronounce such endings if the 'm’s were replaced with 'n’s). This may be an unwarranted extrapolation. In Sanskrit, this accusative ending nasalization of the vowel is represented, when translitterated from the Sanskrit devanagari into the Roman alphabet, by an ‘m’ with a little dot under it. Of course, in the devanagari, it is not spelled with anything like an ‘m,’ or its equivalent, or any letter at all, but a symbol, a dot written over the last vowel to represent this following nasal sound.

Now, I will admit that the Romans, like the Etruscans, did not have an alphabet totally sufficient for all the sounds of the language, most notably with regard to the above ‘gn’ that is neither ‘g’ nor ‘n’. However, this level of phonetic inaccuracy, utilizing an ‘m’ where no ‘m’ sound is even remotely made — and not just in a few, obscure words, like those few which possess ‘gn’, but in almost every single singular accusative word — is absolutely preposterous to me. Moreover, that such a sound even existed in the tongues of Europe — or anywhere west of India — with the express grammatical intention of implying the accusative singular seems equally absurd. Maybe our more Grecian friends could assist us, but I’m pretty sure Greek uses a solid ‘n’ to finalize its accusative singulars, no?

Also, the pdf in question doesn’t actually describe this sound to be a nasalization of the preceding vowel, as it is known from Sanskrit, but indicates that “-am” was pronounced “-ang,” ending with the selfsame ‘ng’ translitteration it provided when describing the velar nasal “gn;” and further that “-em” was pronounced “-eng,” “-um” as “-oong,” and so forth. I think this is even more ludicrous than to suppose a nasal-vowel ending like to Sanskrit’s accusative singulars. (I was assuming the former in order to give the benefit of the doubt to the interpretation of this pdf, since a pronunciation closer to the mother-tongue Sanskrit was more likely than something totally different.) Simply, the Latins weren’t stupid. If they already had a spelling for the “ng” velar nasal sound (like king and sing), they would have spelled their words “amicugn video” or “illugn equugn tibi do.” The Classical languages — and Latin is no exception — are incredibly consistant when compared with other, less “civilized” tongues (that is, languages which developed before they attained the atmosphere of more highly developed society and sophistication, such as German, which possesses many idiosyncrasies of spelling, to say nothing of our very own English).

This may have been an unnecessarily long rant, but basically, Chad, I can’t seem to agree with that interpretation of the vocis latinae. I cannot fathom Latin to have been so coarse and ugly as that.

hi lucus eques, all that sanskrit stuff is lost on me sorry, but the evidence about latin pronunciation shows that word-final m was a nasal of some sort. the best references on this are the latest sources on golden age latin pronunciation, see e.g vox latina and the pronunciation of latin by daitz; but just for some quick net links see the * note to “m” here:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Latin_phonemes

and the explanation of “m” here:

http://www.lingua.co.uk/latin/tour/pronunciation/letters/

you also mentioned that greek uses a solid “nu” for its accusative singulars. actually it’s closer to latin: the “n” sound gets absorbed into the consonant following, if the word is closely related in syntax. for example the sound of nu in to\n leg… was absorbed by the lambda, sounding like “toh leg…”. before some letters, however, nu was nasalised instead. for more about this see vox graeca. i’m not making speculations or extrapolations from foreign pronunciations by analogy here: just summarising the authoritative works on the classical pronunciation of greek and latin :slight_smile:

Heya, Chad; sorry about the constant invocation of Sanskrit; it’s pretty helpful, though, at times when it comes to Indo-European tongues. Neat websites. The first one, however, the “Latin Qvarter,” I am obliged immediately to disregard, for it definites the pronunciation of short i as being like the English word “it” or “is.” This low, relatively nonsonorous sound doesn’t even exist outside of English, much less in a Mediterranean language. Latin vowels, as we all know, are constant in their placement within the mouth, just as they are in Italian, Spanish, and many of the Romance tongues (in fact, in these languages, as well as Latin, the vowels are superior in influence over the consonants; this was demonstrated above where the vowels “e” and “i” actually force the velar consants forward in Vulgar Latin and the resultant Romance tongues, generating palatals and sibilants instead of velar stops). The English concept of “short” and “long” vowels comes from the vulgar, descended nature of our language; “A,” pronounced like the capital letter, is considered “long” because it is indeed a diphthong, spelled approximately in Latin as “ei.” “ah,” is considered a “short” vowel in English because it doesn’t take as much time to pronounce it. Likewise for the other four. But this unfortunate convention to which some stulti “Classicists” ascribe themselves is fundamentally flawed and inherently incorrect, and ignores the phonology and linguistics of practically all other languages.

The second website has more merrit, in my opinion; notice how the it defintes vowel length as just that, duration of sound. As for the nasal vowels that it maintains are what exist at the ends of these words, I believe I have found an answer which addresses that matter.

I certainly don’t mean to suppose these ideas are solely your own; surely your thoughts are well reasoned and supported. Nevertheless, from my perspective, I don’t see how these phonologists can possibly reconstruct the voces of these languages like this. Is there truly written documentation, by Cicero or one of his numerous contemporaries, which describes in detail the pronunciation of this favored lost language? Does the Greek have the same, perhaps hidden in one of the many volumes of Plato? This would be the only definitive proof against otherwise regarded linguistic intuition. I will gladly eat my words when Cicero describes to me the nasal vowels of Classical Latin accusative singulars in every position within a setence.

However, if there is lacking such a definitive description, then these reconstructive phonologists are, perhaps wisely, examining the eldest daughter of the many linguae of the parent Indo-European, id est Sanskrit. If these philologists are trusting Sanskrit (to a degree which they should not), then they would see how Sanskrit definitely does this “nasal vowel” thing for its accusatives, as I mentioned above — only when such an accusatively cased noun is followed by any other word that begins with a consonant. Indeed, on its own, a stand-alone accusative in Sanskrit — let us use the example of açvaha, horse, in accusative: açvam — we see that a true, distinct ‘m’ ends the word. This is how it is spelled in the devanagari; this is how it is pronounced. However, when the consonant of a following word comes after, such as açvam paçyaami, I see the horse, the true “m” appears to be lost, replaced instead with what in Sanskrit is called an anusvaara, a nasalization of the preceeding vowel. No stand-alone accusative ever has this sound in Sanskrit, because it wouldn’t make sense; the sandhi, as these sound-changes between words are called, only happen between words (and there are many different kinds other than this which applies to accusative singulars). Instead, this particular sandhi occurs as a direct result of being followed by another word.

In particular with this sandhi, as with all of them, it isn’t actually a change of pronunciation of the word. If one attempts to pronounce açvam paçyaami, without the deliberately changing to the nasalized vowel of the sandhi, at a moderate speaking pace, one finds very quickly that it is impossible to avoid making the sandhi. The anusvaara occurs naturally as a consequence of speech. That’s why it’s a part of the grammar of Sanskrit; because it’s already there when one tries to speak. The only difference is that the Vedics wrote out this sound change to make their written system one hundred percent phonetic. Sandhi are more familiar to us in a different form, when clitics are formed in Latin words. Archaic Latin cumservare became conservare, because it was easier to pronounce, because this pronunciation was a direct result of the compounded consonants involved. Another example of intraverbal spelling change is adfacio, which, over time, became “afficio.” The ‘d’ was absorbed into the ‘f’, and the ‘a’ loosed into an ‘i’. “Accipio” is quite the same.

For those of us familiar with French, we know that liaison, the linking of sounds of one word to the proximate ones, is absolutely essential to correct French pronunciation, and that we are forever doomed to be tourists in Gallic eyes if we fail to meet this requirement. This liaison occurs when one word which follows another begins with a vowel. Let’s look at an example: Est-ce que vous avez chanté? “Is it so that you have sung?” The main liaison is between “vous” and “avez.” Though when apart “vous” just sounds like “voo,” for its ending ‘s’ is dropped, when it comes before the vowel of a following word, in this case the ‘a’ of “avez,” the ‘s’ links to the ‘a’, making it sound as if the word is actually “vousavez.”

Now let’s return to Latin. Try saying, “amicum tenet suum,” as fluidly and naturally and speedily as a native speaker. Notice what happens? After several times, the final ‘m’ of “amicum” dissintigrates; the lips never quite all the way close. If they did, the words would sound too stilted in prosodical speech. Now, “equum meum videt.” After saying it fast a few times, you’ll notice that the ‘m’ of “equum” disappears, absorbed into the following ‘m’ of “meum.” However, if we say, “virtutem ita habeo,” no matter how quickly we say it, the final ‘m’ of “virtutem” remains quite the solid bilabial nasal that it is. In Sanskrit, the express phonological rule of pronunciation is that such finally 'm’s lose their closed perfection before most consonants of following words; but if the following word starts with a vowel, the ‘m’ is fully pronounced. The same seem to be identical with Latin. The only difference between the two appears to be that Sanskrit actually changes its spelling to accomodate the new pronunciation, and Latin does not. This conclusion allows all parties to remain consistant; the Romans retain their virtually phonetic spelling of the words, the reconstructors of ancient Classical phonologies can rest assured they are practically right, and the static endings of Latin accusative singular words are not of an improbable unbelievable pronunciation that doesn’t in anyway match its spelling. Everybody wins. :slight_smile:

hi lucus eques, i’ll make a few quick points 'cause i’m pretty busy, but i’ll definitely come back to this in a few days, because i highly respect your interest in probing these details of pronunciation (which are often ignored). i’ll have some free time next week to look at the original sources again but in the meantime i’ll just rattle off a few things from the top of my head…

there are 3 separate language processes at issue now.

first, the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s part of a specific consonant cluster. e.g. in greek, the kappa in e)k when followed by a consonant-initial word takes on the sound of that following consonant… in vox graeca this is clearly explained and shown by inscriptional evidence; nu often behaves similarly, as i explained above. furthermore in greek, sigma before the “big dam” (as i think of them) consonants (beta, gamma, delta and mu) changes to a “z” sound (not zeta, which is z + d); also in latin, “b” before s or t takes on a “p” sound, as described by ancient authors. finally there’s the example which started this off: in the consonant cluster “gn” the “g” becomes a nasal…

in your last post, you’re suggesting that latin “m” is not pronounced as a bi-labial for a similar reason: in consonant clusters involving “m”, the lips aren’t fully brought together…

second, the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s re-syllabified into another syllable. e.g. in french liaison, the “s” in vous avez as you mention is pushed into “avez”, but you didn’t mention that it takes on a “z” sound in the process, distinguishing it from vous savez, which keeps the “s” sound at the start of “savez”. note however that this is a separate process to the “consonant cluster” process described above. liaison isn’t relevant to the change of latin “m” to a nasal.

third, the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s at the end of a word. e.g. in french you’ve got the “careful” consonants which are usually pronounced at the end of a word, whereas usually other consonants aren’t. this is a separate “process” to the 2 processes above. and that’s how the sources i’ve read on latin “m” describe the process of its nasalisation: it’s because the “m” is word-final that it’s nasalised: so e.g. word-final “m” in a clause-final word would also be nasalised (distinguishing this from the first process above, where nasalisation wouldn’t happen because there’s no consonant following). i didn’t read that this nasalisation happens as a result of its clustering with a following consonant. there’s something specifically different about “m” at the end of a word (compared to other consonants), as shown by the way a syllable “-dem” followed by a vowel-initial word will blend/elide (it’s unclear which) the “em” into the following syllable of the next word…

i’m setting this out so that you can (hopefully) get back to me before i’ve got the time next week to look at the original sources again… i’ll be looking primarily at greek (the language i’m concentrating on) but i can check/confirm latin pronunciation rules while i’m there from the original sources. since it sounds like you’re already across sanskrit, i encourage you to pull out the original or authoritative modern sources on greek and latin pronunciation as well, because i personally won’t be convinced by arguments from analogy which go against (what i’ve read to be) evidence about greek and latin pronunciation specifically, which are based on the descriptions of ancient authors and are confirmed from inscriptions. cheers, chad. :slight_smile:

Heya, Chad. :slight_smile:

i’ll make a few quick points 'cause i’m pretty busy, but i’ll definitely come back to this in a few days, because i highly respect your interest in probing these details of pronunciation (which are often ignored).

Indeed, as I respect your interest as well.

i’ll have some free time next week to look at the original sources again but in the meantime i’ll just rattle off a few things from the top of my head…

there are 3 separate language processes at issue now.

first> , the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s part of a specific consonant cluster. e.g. in greek, the kappa in e)k when followed by a consonant-initial word takes on the sound of that following consonant… in vox graeca this is clearly explained and shown by inscriptional evidence; nu often behaves similarly, as i explained above. furthermore in greek, sigma before the “big dam” (as i think of them) consonants (beta, gamma, delta and mu) changes to a “z” sound (not zeta, which is z + d); also in latin, “b” before s or t takes on a “p” sound, as described by ancient authors. finally there’s the example which started this off: in the consonant cluster “gn” the “g” becomes a nasal…

Quite. This is just the same as in English, for example in its pluralizations and second person singular verb conjugations in ‘s’. After an unvoiced consonant, it is pronounced as a true ‘s’, such as “cats,” “sticks,” “lops.” But after a voiced consonant, this pluralized sound is pronounced as a ‘z’: “dogz,” “lobz,” “digz,” etcetera. There are plenty of other examples in Indo-European tongues of this phenomenon.

in your last post, you’re suggesting that latin “m” is not pronounced as a bi-labial for a similar reason: in > consonant clusters > involving “m”, the lips aren’t fully brought together…

second> , the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s re-syllabified into another syllable. e.g. in french liaison, the “s” in > vous avez > as you mention is pushed into “avez”, but you didn’t mention that it takes on a “z” sound in the process, distinguishing it from vous savez, which keeps the “s” sound at the start of “savez”. note however that this is a separate process to the “consonant cluster” process described above. liaison isn’t relevant to the change of latin “m” to a nasal.

No, but merely an example of interverbal alteration of sound.

third> , the change in a consonant’s pronunciation when it’s at the end of a word. e.g. in french you’ve got the “careful” consonants which are usually pronounced at the end of a word, whereas usually other consonants aren’t. this is a separate “process” to the 2 processes above. and that’s how the sources i’ve read on latin “m” describe the process of its nasalisation: it’s because the “m” is > word-final > that it’s nasalised: so e.g. word-final “m” in a > clause> -final word would also be nasalised (distinguishing this from the > first > process above, where nasalisation wouldn’t happen because there’s no consonant following). i didn’t read that this nasalisation happens as a result of its clustering with a following consonant.

This is, however, the case in Sanskrit, the fundament to all Indo-European. Until your suggestion, I had no idea that Latin or Greek did the same as Sanskrit (essentially for the reason that it is a natural pronunciation of language, and few actually write it out).

there’s something specifically different about “m” at the end of a word (compared to other consonants), as shown by the way a syllable “-dem” followed by a vowel-initial word will blend/elide (it’s unclear which) the “em” into the following syllable of the next word…

If you mean how the ‘m’ will be a true ‘m’ when a vowel follows, that would be consistent with Sanskrit, as well as Latin, Greek, Italian, English, French, German, and practically every other language.

i’m setting this out so that you can (hopefully) get back to me before i’ve got the time next week to look at the original sources again… i’ll be looking primarily at greek (the language i’m concentrating on) but i can check/confirm latin pronunciation rules while i’m there from the original sources.

Greek will be more than adequate. Despite the extraordinary differences from Latin and Sanskrit due to the idiosyncratic tendencies of the pre-Indo-European Greeks, it should be more than clear enough.

since it sounds like you’re already across sanskrit, i encourage you to pull out the original or authoritative modern sources on greek and latin pronunciation > as well> , because i personally won’t be convinced by arguments from analogy which go against (what i’ve read to be) evidence about greek and latin pronunciation specifically, which are based on the descriptions of ancient authors and are confirmed from inscriptions.

I wouldn’t dream of encouraging the contrary. The reason I am going right to the source of these linguistic tendencies (to IE, and Sanskrit by proxy) is precisely because those supposèd “authorities” are totally inconsistent. We just saw the awful differences between the very two websites you above cited; one described a “short i” to be pronounced like the ‘i’ in the English ‘sits’! By God! not even German has that sound! Such unforgivable incoherency would be more than enough to throw out all these pieces of evidence in any court in the Western World.

As you suggest, and as I wholeheartedly agree, the only way to know for certain is to see what the Romans said, or what the Greeks said, or the Vedics. Thankfully Sanskrit is a living language, and has had an unbroken tradition for more than five thousand years. We are not so fortunate in the other two Classical tongues. So, my friend, I look forward to when your busyness has calmed in a week, and so we may hear from Plato himself, or someone like him, to see definitively how these long lost linguae once were.

cheers, chad. > :slight_smile:

Vale!

If you mean how the ‘m’ will be a true ‘m’ when a vowel follows, that would be consistent with Sanskrit, as well as Latin, Greek, Italian, English, French, German, and practically every other language.

what do u mean, a “true” m in latin when a vowel follows? e.g., how would you phonetically represent the pronunciation of multum ille et from line 3 of the aeneid, and how many syllables would you hear?

A true ‘m’ sound, in my definition, would be a complete bilabial nasal; that is, the lips come together, and a sound like “mmm” is made.

Using (assumed) Latin phonetics, I would spell it,

mul-tu-mil-le-et

I would guess five syllables, unless the two 'e’s are somehow elided.

hi lucus eques, actually it’s 3 syllables: it can’t be any more than that, under the rules of latin scansion and dactylic hexameter. the reason is that these syllables must be long because they come before double consonants: “mul(t)”, “il”, “et”. there can’t be 1 short syllable intervening in either case, because that would form a cretic (long-short-long) which can’t fit anywhere in dactylic hex…

the word-final “m” in multum isn’t sounded at all: on this everyone agrees: the question comes down to the detail of whether the nasalised “u” is slightly heard, or whether the “t” in “multum” is re-syllabified into the “i” of the following word. for an introductory explanation why this happens (with “m” only btw) (i just googled this website now: if you want an authoritative account, check out the real books e.g. raven on latin meter) see

http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/classics/courses/metrica/elision.html

btw at another page on the same site, there’s another reference to the nasalisation of verse-final “m”: in “urbem” at the end of line 5 (where there isn’t a consonant following), which is nasalised rather than a bilabial “m”, as pronounced by the classics professor emeritus sonkowsky from the uni of minnesota:

http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/classics/courses/metrica/example2.html

word-final “m” is different from all other consonants in latin on this point. :slight_smile:

Umm … I’m sorry, Chad; I don’t say this in any way to be unpleasant or mean, but you are completely incorrect. As a published poet (in dactyllic hexameter in English, no less), I am fully familiar with the meter of classical verse. Let’s look at the line:

litora — multum ille et terris iactatus et alto

Dactyllic hexameter is, literally, a meter with six “dactyls,” fingers, which are defined as a long syllable plus two short syllables, or a long syllable plus another long syllable. The final dactyl in a line of classical meter must be long plus short.

Naturally, Virgil has just this meter in the third line, as in every line of the Aeneid.

litora forms one dactyl, one long two short. multum, pronouncing with true phoneticism, is also another dactyl, with two long syllables. ille et is the third dactyl, followed by terris iac-, then tatus et the fifth, and then the final sixth alto, long plus short, just as the end of every line of dactyllic hexameter.

What you suggest would make the line too short; it would be four dactyls instead of six, or less, depending what other arbitrary “resyllabifications” are undertaken.

All due credit to the Emeritus Professor, but Robert Sonkowsky’s interpretation is laughably flawed. It completely ignores the conecpt of dactyllic hexameter. Two of his dactyls in the very line you cite only have one syllable. That is inherently not dactyllic; it totally betrays the definition. One might argue this was some new style or form that Virgil or others might have used — by why bastardize the verse, firstly by mispronouncing it, then to make up for that mispronunciation by miscounting and misarranging the syllables? It’s utterly ridiculous.

hi lucus eques, from this point i’d appreciate it if you confirm the accuracy of that last post with the latin experts on this site before we go on, or from books on scansion if you’d like. if they come back and say that you’re right, i’m happy to admit that i’m wrong and we’ll keep discussing this. but until then i’ll put this on hold if that’s alright :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Good morning gentlemen, I have enjoyed reading your discussion thus far.
The generally received pronunciation of the form /ng/ of Latin is the velar nasal (by assimilation) followed by [n], as in Eng. wiNG Nut.

I am more roused, however, to comment on Lucus’ recent post on the mechanics of Latin prosody.

Dactylic hexameter should properly be called catalectic dactylic hexameter for it is made of five dactyls (or spondees) and a final truncated foot, properly a spondee, though (by the phenomenon of brevis in longo) a trochee was also acceptable.
A dactyl cannot be equated to a spondee as you presume, in spite of the theoretical equivalence of ‘total’ length. To call ‘multum’ of V.Aen.1.3 a dactyl is heavily misleading, for it is merely one long syllable. Final ‘m’ was probably pronounced when read as a faint nasal, and therefore is always elided in front of a following vowel (or h).

Your elision of the line ‘litora multum ille et terris iactatus et alto’, does, with all due respect, monstrous damage to the beauty of the line.
The true scansion is quite simple:
1st foot: litora, an opening dacyl (a dactyl being only long-short-short) as favoured to open the line by V.
2nd foot: mult(um) ill-, a spondee (i.e. long, long), the um is discounted metrically.
3rd foot: et terr-, a spondee, the ‘e’ of ille is elided - to maintain it would be painful hiatus.
4th foot: -is iact, another spondee, -is is of course long, and the i of iact is consonantal.
5th foot: -tatus et, a dactyl, almost always employed in the 5th foot by Virgil to remind the listener’s ear towards the close of a heavily spondaic verse that the general nature of the metre is dactylic.
6th foot: alto, a spondee, the final ‘o’ is of course long.

There is nothing strange at all in Chad’s understanding, indeed it is correct.

I am afraid, Lucus, inspite of your polemic, you are in the respect of metre very much misled.

English hexameters, which you say you compose, are based upon a completely different basis of word accent, such as those of Longfellow. Word accent does have standing in Latin poetry (the ictus being of most importance), but this aspect was subordinated to that of internal syllabic quantity.

Kindest,

~D

Well! there’s something Wheelock didn’t mention!

Ah, Longfellow; I must have read Evangeline a dozen times. Yes, I would be following his tradition in dactyllic hexamter composition.

Ah well; I’ll certainly keep this all in mind the next I reapply myself to Latin verse. In the meantime, however, since Virgil’s content is still far beyond me, I’ll keep myself relegated to Ovid’s Libri Amoris, and work on my Latin prose.

At least I know not to trust Wheelock though; I’m glad Classicists prefer the velar nasal for gn.