Catullus 64

Latin Latin Poetry
1

I’m reading Catullus 64. I don’t find it easy going but that’s probably because I haven’t read Latin poetry in years. Anyway, a few questions/ remarks so far.

-The opening: how very non-committing it is. You’d expect the subject matter of the epic to be stated loud and clearly (arma virumque cano etcetera). Instead we get the Argo and some mythological references. About the Argo being the very first ship ever: is that just Catullus’ idea or common knowledge?


-A few line onwards the epic does get under way, Catullus pinpointing it to a very specific date:

Illa atque haud alia viderunt luce marinas
mortales oculis nudato corpore Nymphas
nutricum tenus extantis e gurgite cano.

I read this as “ on that very day (and no other)” and not as “on that day (and never again).”
I guess Nereids have been seen by men after this specific encounter.
Then the image of those Nereids as some kind of marine pin-ups: the term male gaze comes to mind but is no doubt anachronistic.
Specifically about “nutricum”: isn’t that an unusual choice here? Sticking out of the water till the feeders/ sucklers.. .


-A bit further:

cui Iuppiter ipse,
ipse suos divum genitor concessit amores

Concessit suos amores: meaning Iuppiter is sharing his love interests with Peleus?


-Still further:

haec vestis priscis hominum variata figuris
heroum mira virtutes indicat arte.

virtutes heroum.. and then we get the story of Theseus abandoning Ariadne. Catullus at his most ironic?

-namque fluentisono prospectans litore Diae
Thesea cedentem celeri cum classe tuetur
indomitos in corde gerens Ariadna furores,
necdum etiam sese quae visit visere credit,
ut pote fallaci quae tunc primum excita somno
desertam in sola miseram se cernat harena.
immemor at iuvenis fugiens pellit vada remis,
irrita ventosae linquens promissa procellae.
quem procul ex alga maestis Minois ocellis
saxea ut effigies bacchantis prospicit, eheu,
prospicit et magnis curarum fluctuat undis,
non flavo retinens subtilem vertice mitram,
non contecta levi velatum pectus amictu,
non tereti strophio lactentis vincta papillas,
omnia quae toto delapsa e corpore passim
ipsius ante pedes fluctus salis adludebant.


Truly magnificent lines, I think.
Fluentisono litore… echoes of παρὰ θῖνα πολυφλοίσβοιο θαλάσσης?
Immemor Theseus: irony again, in light of what follows (T’s forgetfulness bringing about his father’s death)

-Then the Minotaur and Ariadne’s flight with Theseus

sed quid ego a primo digressus carmine plura
commemorem, ut linquens genitoris filia vultum,
ut consanguineae complexum, ut denique matris,
quae misera in gnata deperdita laetabatur,
omnibus his Thesei dulcem praeoptarit amorem,

misera: proleptic, I get that. But laetebatur? What reason has Ariadne’s mother to rejoice? Her daughter is leaving her family behind after all. Is Theseus that good a match?

-And now I’m in the middle of Ariadne’s compliant:

sicine me patriis avectam, perfide, ab aris,
perfide, deserto liquisti in litore, Theseu?

Great! For me it brings back Monteverdi’s ‘lasciate mi morire’. Maybe I’ll have more to ask later on. Any imput would be much appreciated.

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Hi Bart, Yes it’s an intriguing poem and highly innovative, a neoteric tour de force and enormously influential. A few minimal responses:

The opening scene with the axing of Pelian pines for the Argo: self-consciously echoes Ennius’ Medea (utinam ne in nemore Pelio securibus …), which itself quasi-translates the opening of Euripides’ Medea (εἴθ’ ὤφελ’ Αργοῦς μὴ διαπτάσθαι σκάφος …). Very mannered, very layered.

Jupiter concessit amores, mythological allusion, Thetis destined to bear a son stronger than his father, nixing advances from Zeus.

119 laetabatur: text suspect, almost certainly wrong I think.

Ariadne on the shore, namque fluentisono etc. As it happens I adduced these lines in an Ovid post by leisulin on the Learning Latin board.

Ariadne’s complaint, yes, exemplary rhetoric, worthy of (again!) Euripides.

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I thought I had posted this earlier but clearly not. MWH makes some great points. I havent revised my post in the light of his.

-The opening: how very non-committing it is. You’d expect the subject matter of the epic to be stated loud and clearly (arma virumque cano etcetera). Instead we get the Argo and some mythological references. About the Argo being the very first ship ever: is that just Catullus’ idea or common knowledge?

Some quick points.

Most of Catullus’s poems are quite short. I think he was influenced by the Alexandrians who were generally averse to epic, so his take on epic is bound to be rather different from Homer and Vergil. What you have described is a deliberate choice.

The beginning is reminiscent of Euripdes’ Medea, I dont recall that Euripides claims that the Argo was the first boat.


Then the image of those Nereids as some kind of marine pin-ups: the term male gaze comes to mind but is no doubt anachronistic.
Specifically about “nutricum”: isn’t that an unusual choice here? Sticking out of the water till the feeders/ sucklers..

Why anachronistic? Catullus is full of questions about the idealisation of women. Perhaps “nutricum” problematises the sexual delight which the viewer might have by reminding us that they could be representative of maternal care.

It’s a very beautiful and interesting poem and when I read it a few years ago I found some of it tough going.

Good to see you back and posting Bart. If I have time I will post more. I am sure MWH will have lots to say of great interest.

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Illa atque haud alia viderunt luce marinas
mortales oculis nudato corpore Nymphas
nutricum tenus extantis e gurgite cano.

I read this as “ on that very day (and no other)” and not as “on that day (and never again).”
I guess Nereids have been seen by men after this specific encounter.

What I wrote before was garbled.

Fordyce says this amendment “haud” is most likely. I am not sure I see the difference between your two formulations. The first is what the Latin says. The second must be what it means. That is it only happened once. This creates problems (in the mind of commentators at least) because of Sophocles O. C. 716-19 and European. El. 433 which provide examples of Nereids escorting a ship. Anyway it’s a much worked point.

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Thanks! I’’m off for a short trip to Paris, so i’ll respond later.