Caelambulatorem Lucum patrem olim cupere, Puto.

Latin Learning Latin
1

Hi, there’s probably a post about this already, but I couldn’t find it if there is. Anyway, I’ve been advancing in Wheelock’s at a reasonable rate and I’m satisfied with my progress so far, considering the fact that I am teaching myself and discipline has never been a strong point of mine, I don’t have much time to study undistractedly (you’d be suprised how hard it is to study with a girlfriend hanging on you an talking about clothes.haha :laughing: ) and also considering the fact that I graduated from High School solely by the good graces of an english teacher who, magna cum misericordia, gave me 10% ‘extra credit’ for being alive. I’m doing OK with the grammar and concepts, though I make plenty of mistakes still, but the reason that I make as many grammatical errors as I do is that I often have to struggle with vocabulary, which blinds me to any gr. mistakes I might make.. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to completely learn vocabulary, rather than memorizing it? I tried flash cards and I got to where I know all the vocabulary when I’m using the flash cards, but not when I attempt to create sentences on my own outside of Wheelock’s. I don’t learn anything by constantly looking up definitions in my dictionary. And is it just me, or do Wheelock’s definitions come up slightly lacking? Maybe I need to learn the concepts behind the words, but how would one do that? Any suggestions would be much appreciated, even if it were ‘try harder’ i would commend you for it. :slight_smile:

aspice unam magnam paragraphem! :laughing:

2

This is a pretty broad question. Do you mean that you have trouble memorizing the definitions, genders, declensions, conjugations, etc.? Or all of those?

Personally, I have never found flashcards to be very helpful; in fact, I never gave them much of a chance and I think I do fine without them. I believe that writing out paradigms is a far superior exercise. I think it would be easier to help you if I had more specific information on your troubles, but here is some basic advice:

Adverbs can be difficult to memorize and there are still quite a few adverbs which I get mixed up from time to time. Some adverbs are based on compounds (e.g. quomodo, quamobrem) or are derived from adjectives/nouns by means of an adverbial suffix (-e, -iter) or an accusative/ablative/locative ending (-o, -a, -im, -am, -i, et alia). This can make words easier to recognize if you know where they come from, but many just have to be memorized, as tamen, nimis, mox, et alia. Some adverbs, such as semper, show up in familiar Latin phrases/mottoes, which is helpful (if you know what the mottoes mean).

Prepositions are about as difficult to memorize as adverbs, but the most common are familiar to us as compounds in English words or show up in English phrases. Those which express location or motion away generally take the ablative whereas those that express motion towards generally take the accusative (there are exceptions, such as prope).

Conjunctions can be tricky to remember, but they are so frequent that you will probably learn them quickly just by exposure. Also, there are not many conjunctions compared to the other types of words.

Nouns and verbs almost always have English derivatives which will help you remember what they mean and sometimes (especially with verbs) which classification they belong to and their principal parts.

And is it just me, or do Wheelock’s definitions come up slightly lacking? Maybe I need to learn the concepts behind the words, but how would one do that? Any suggestions would be much appreciated, even if it were ‘try harder’ i would commend you for it. > :slight_smile:

Learn the words that come from the Latin words and you will remember their meanings much more easily. Internalize the meanings of words first by reading sentences without translating them on paper, and then not translating them at all. This takes a while to do, so do not put it off until you are finished with the textbook. If you have to, try it with the sentences in easier chapters first.

3

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to completely learn vocabulary, rather than memorizing it? I tried flash cards and I got to where I know all the vocabulary when I’m using the flash cards, but not when I attempt to create sentences on my own outside of Wheelock’s. I don’t learn anything by constantly looking up definitions in my dictionary.

You can learn, with relatively little hard memorization work, a lot of vocabularly, syntax, and pronounciation by the process of aural conditioning - the well known practice that is applied to the learning most modern languages. I have been arguing for an oral/aural approach on another thread but far from being treated as some one advancing a sensible idea not one person has endorsed this idea even luke warmly. But I remain undeterred from my enthusiasm. Buy tapes, make your own .mp3s, or whatever. Listen in the car! Even if you only wish to read, condition the ear first! The areas of the brain involved in language aquistion are quite naturally hooked up somehow to the areas involved in processing of sound. That said, vocabularly cards are still a good idea. Writing them down is too. Writing small essays in latin also helps.
Kynetus

4

Vocabulary has always been the hardest part for me, too. I don’t have any good answers for you, though, because I haven’t found a good solution. My only suggestion would be to let it come naturally (what’s the hurry?) and do not let it interfere with your grammar work. Use a dictionary liberally to look up words but avoid any tools which analyze forms. At least that way, whether composing or reading, you will only get the defintion and/or principle parts, so the grammar part is still up to you.

With practice more and more words just stick in there. With increasing frequency I am finding that when I go to look up a word I have a basic idea of what it means and I’m getting more of a confirmation or clarification, when previously it was always “I have no idea what these 5 words in this sentence mean…” It is certainly a slow process, though.

I did try to study Dr. Diederich’s Recommended Basic Vocabulary, and I like the way he organized it, but it didn’t work well for me.

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Amicus noster E. Donnellius nuperrime inter alia haec nobis scripsit

Vocabulary has always been the hardest part for me, too. I don’t have any good answers for you, though, because I haven’t found a good solution.



Mihi quoque pars diffillissima semper fuit discere vocabula. Prodolor tibi consilia bona non possum praebere nam nullum solutionem inveni.

Si verum est quod dicis, nempe quod tibi nullae sunt rationes bonae ad nova vocabula adipiscenda, cur non uteris methodo quam identidem protuli? Per dificile est animo capere quod aures prius non multies audiverunt.

Sunt qui censent methodum optimam ad linguam latinam discendam esse sermonem vivo modo locutum auscultare. In numero horum hominum stat prominens nomen meum. Huic methodo faveo quia discipulus non tantum verba rapidius discit sed etiam quomodo his in senteniis uti.

Valete

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You need Lingua Latina, my friend. The best way to learn vocabulary is from entertaining and enriching contexts.

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An excellent suggestion from Lucus Eques. Lingua Latina is first rate - although I can only claim myself to have worked through half of each book. In another thread someone mentioned that he’d exported the sound files from the CDs that go with the Lingua Latina course to his cell phone. I assume that the same thing could be done with .mp3 players. By doing something like that, you could follow Lucus’ advice as to which method best imparts vocabularly and comprehension (Lingua Latina, my friend!) as well as mine concerning the efficacy of aural conditioning.

As for you, Lucus, unless you already speak as well as you write you might wish to check out the Assimil program, which like Lingua latina also has good a reputation. There is an Italian (but no English) version of the text. The three tapes are entirely in latin. ~K

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Gratias vobis, amici! Sorry for getting back a little late. I’d say the hardest part for me is learning adverbs and learning the slight differences between words. (ergo, igitur; I still don’t know which one to use when writing my own sentences, ergo I get a bit confused. Ego, igitur, non bene disco, mihi stomachans. (haha I learned stomachor from reading stomachosus in Cattus Petasatus Latine)) So slight distinctions give me problems, as well. I try to speak every sentence I read, but I can’t talk to any Latinae Magister (FMI does doctor mean ‘teacher’, too?) to make sure it is correct, as the nearest one is probably 1.5 hours away, But I can work that out a little through the internet. I’m better at learning grammar than I am at learning vocab. On the whole, I’d say the translation from englisc to latin is harder than latin->english. Thanks for the help y’all!
Valete

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Flash cards are an aberration of nature! The best way to learn vocabulary is in a context, especially little words like prepositions and conjunctions. If you learn a sentence in Latin by heart, it will become yours: eventually it will pop up inside your head like it had come from your own elucubrations. Since you know what it means, soon the meaning of each word will be evident to you without the crutch of the English translation. Since you know it by heart, your vocabulary resources are available to you 24/7.

I use lines of poetry; if you’re not the lyrical type you could use Latin quotes, of which there are many and good, one for every ocassion.

OBESA CANTAVIT

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When Canadian schools started (c1970s) teaching French to anglophone students through total immersion programs (i.e. the student’s entire school day in and out of class was in French), researchers came up with a figure of some 1200 hours of instruction per academic year as the threshold at which the language “sticks”. That helped explain why generations of students taught by the old one-hour-a-day method left school barely able to say more than “bonjour, ça va?”, even after several years of instruction.
The same principle mast surely apply to Latin and other languages: acquisition is in proportion to the amount of time devoted to its study.
The methods recommended in this and other threads (yes, Kynetus, even the oral/aural approach!) will all help one learn; the secret ingredient has to be “time”.
My $0.2-worth!
Inero

11

regarding Immersion, I agree that you need to surround yourself with the sound of the language - intensively - which is why I set up the LATINUM podcast, so that students can download a lot of Latin to their mp3 players, and create a virtual immersion environment. I made the site, because I wanted this resource for myself.

I am steadily building up the site, and it is being used a lot, even after only ten weeks online.

Evan.

12

Hi …

The latinum podcasts are a fantastic initiative. I had actually stumbled on the site last friday and had listened to the some of the first conversations, 11, 12, 13 but I didn’t realize that the person behind the project was a textkit colleague.

There is no doubt in my mind that conditioning those portions of the brain involved in hearing is the most important tool for building vocabulary. - and speaking ability.

I am having a little trouble though navigating the site. For example, at the left there is an index of content for various weeks. Under week 22 I see some of the missing first conversations I want to review. However, when I actually click on the link for the week 22 archive (to the right), I only get the catullus poem and don’t see the other stuff that is supposedly availble for that week.

Thanks again for this fantastic project.
Kynetus

13

Hey All…

As I mentioned yesterday I fell upon Metrodorus’ latinum podcast site before he informed us about it. At first I wasn’t impressed … things seemed a bit disorganized and I quickly forgot about it. Since he posted about it I have been exploring the site.

The latinum podcast is actually a goldmine! Metrodorus is pouring a lot of energy into the project. Explore the archives (they are organized by week) and you will see what I mean.

I also see that some of our members are contributing.

14

Hi Kyneto,

You’re right, the podcast was disorganised. !!! mea culpa

I had a real headache working out how to organise it…it being a podcast, with each episode by default published sequentially. I’ve finally decided to use the archiving process, and organise the subject matter in broad categories, as there is now too much on the podcast to list the individual files in an index.


As the number of files increases, I will increase the sub-categories, for example, I’ll devote one week’s archive to Catullus, another to Horace, etc. At the moment, there is not enough of any one poet or author to do this, so I’ve lumped them all together.

The active learning lessons seem to have a particularly high uptake, as do the Adler lessons in spoken Latin. (audio conditioning, as you call it) I’ll make some more of these active learning lessons, but as I’m only using the best examples I can get my hands on for these particlar learning excercises, there naturally are not a huge number of them.

I’m putting a lot of time into the project, as I have some time free at present - once the bulk of the site is established - i.e., I’ve recorded all the Adler material, then I will probably slow down a bit.

-Evan. (metrodorus)

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Well, there are no shortcuts to learning such a wealth of material. It requires hard work and diligence. Note cards have worked for me quite well. What I do is pick a word for each letter of the latin alphabet for Verbs - Nouns
Like:
Appello = appeal, mention
bibo = drink
capio = take