I was reading Aristophanes Frogs (in english) and was wondering if someone could explain this, towards the end of the play, Euripides and Aeschylus are criticizing each other, Aeschylus keeps interrupting Eurpides and saying “he lost his oil flask!”, it is meant as some sort of silly insult to Euripides, but I don’t get it. I can’t read the Greek version, so I don’t know if the translation is good (and I can’t post it here for you greek readers to look at). The play is very funny and I can’t wait to read it in greek (some day), but this joke I seem to be missing. Any ideas?
Throughout the play Aesch. makes a big point out of ridiculing Soph. for taking the day-to-day humdrum of life as the basis for his plays. There is nothing so humdrum as an oil flask. It can also be seen as a euphemism for a membrum virile. Taking that line of thought puts a new level of humour into the contest.
Continue enjoying the play, it is one of the most funny and though-provoking comedies ever written
Paul McK
I have another question. In the play, Dionysus comes off looking like a bit of a baffoon. I’ve only read a few of his other plays and don’t recall him mocking any of the other gods quite so much. Was this considered blaphemous, or by that time in ancient Greece were the people a bit more liberal in their worship? And what is with Dionysus’ Hercules envy? Was the god of wine seen as a bit too effeminate?
When he wrote this, the other playwrites were already dead (obviously) but I was under the impression they were all around the same time. Does anyone know when Euripides died vs. Aristophanes.
As well as a god of wine Dionysos was also the god of theatre, Ar. was satirising his patron. It has to be Dionysos who goes to Hades in order to collect Eur. for this reason. Yes, he was portrayed as a buffoon - the swapping of the character of a god and Xanthias the slave was a good comic twist. X was ‘brave’, ‘clever’, and ‘inventive’ - the god wasn’t. This was a common trait of Old Comedy, its influence carried on into New Comedy.
Yes, by the time of this play (405) the sophists had tested the sanctity of the gods. Eur. died in 406, Ar. hung on until 380 or thereabouts.
First of all, it’s not as if other playwriters (I am thinking of virtually all of Euripides’ plays and Prometheus Bound by Aeschylous) were trully treating the gods with outmost respect.
Secondly, it’s comedy. Virtually everything is allowed in comedy
Yes, Irene, it is important for us to be aware that the ancient Greeks (and Athenians in particular if it’s drama that we study) did not regard their gods with anything like the reverence that we give to our monotheistic God (whichever one that may be).
As you say Eur. was not above portraying them in less than a flattering light - but, again, we must be aware that, following the sophistic movement of the later C5th, there was a challenge to old religious trends. The portrayal of Dion. by Eur. later in the same year (405) was worlds different to Ar.'s - but for an entirely different reason. Whatever else Frogs was, it was a propaganda play designed to raise the morale of the populus at a time of dire trouble. The Bacchae was far from that, I think is was specifically written to cause the younger generation to think about how their world existed.
You say vitually everything is allowed in comedy - agreed, but never more so than in Ar.'s Old Comedy; as the C5th slid into the 4th so plots and play structures changed quite considerably. As far as we know Menander, Plautus, and Terence never allowed themselves the outrageous flights of fantasy [sic] sao beloved of Ar. in his earlier comedies.
Fascinating stuff,
Paul McK
To begin with, yes, Euripides has actually been called a (and I am not sure it translates well “a philosopher on stage” meaning that in the majortiy of his plays he’s more interested in getting his ideas through and not the actual plot.
The same however cannot be said about Aeschylus nor -I think- can he be said to have been overtly influenced by the sophistic movement.
As for later comedy, well, I guess that the overall changes in society were profound and that’s why comedy changed so dramatically (though I must admit that the fact that er… bodily functions are not as commonly described in later comedy is a relief )
Anyway, Homer didn’t respect the Dodecatheon all that much either (I am giving “respect for deities” the meaning it has in modern monotheistic religions)
Aeschylus was cooling his heels in fields of asphodel by 456, somewhat before the sophistic movement took too great a hold on Athenian life, I’d venture.
Scatology appeals to little boys of all eras, however old they are
Quite, sorry antianira. I hope that you will get as much enjoyment from Ar. as I have, and continue to.
So, I think we can both agree that he wasn’t overtly influenced by sophist when describing i.e. Hermes as a coward.
Scatology appeals to little boys of all eras, however old they are > >
Oh I will have to agree! Especially since, while many of the nicest ancient Greek words have fallen out of use by today, Skata (excuse my French and while I’m at it, my horrible English) is still used.
That said (and that’s an effort to actually contribute something to the thread) reading Aristophanes’ work is amuzing and very informative of both the Athenian politics (for some of his plays you really need to have a history book handy) and of some aspects of everyday life (i.e. The Greek tribes conquered the Pre-hellenistic tribes; they incorporated some of their words and made their history part of the mythos. If only they hadn’t ‘overlooked’ plumbing")[/quote]
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