any other grammars like Allen & Greenough's

Latin Learning Latin
1

Hi. I would like you to recommend to me a kind of grammar book.

Allen & Greenough’s has numerous example sentences and their translations.

Reading such samples of translation makes a great profit for me, and is one of the best ways of studying Latin for me. And I like doing so.

But, though it is the best grammar for me among 5 books I have (in most of which example sentences are very few), reading always the same book is frustrating. So I want other such grammars, the ones with tons of example sentences and translations.

Of course it may be sufficient to read the drill(=example sentences) and its answer(=translations) of such grammars as Weelock. But doing so is a little laborious, which is annoying and can make me tend to avoid studying. And in doing so, I can’t learn the grammatical definition of the sentence in an effective way. Meanwhile Allen & Greenough has a grammatical explanation over sample sentences so that I can memorize grammatical terms and definitions, which is also important for me now.

So someone please recommend to me other grammars which are like Allen & Greenough’s.

2

Gildersleeve’s is a lot like A&G. It is still in print and copies are easy to find, but you can also get old versions from Google Books for free:

http://books.google.com/books?id=xogXAAAAIAAJ

There are countless other grammars out there, some better than others, but Gildersleeve’s has certainly stood the test of time. If you want to find others, you can search Google Books, or go to my G’Oogle list where there are 50 or so links to Latin grammars:

http://www.edonnelly.com/google.html#2

3

Thank you, Edonnelly.

I couldn’t get the Gildersleeve at that Google page, but your page is great. It seems I can read a lot of grammar books and others there.

4

A particularly thorough Latin Grammar available on GoogleBooks is that of George Lane.

5

I went to the George Lane’s book page from edonnelly’s homepage, but I couldn’t get the online book. As edonnelly says in his page, Google may be shutting my access from Japan.

6

Gildersleeve and Lodge is good. Bennett’s isn’t bad, but it’s not as filled as Allen and Greenough’s. They’re all three really good to have. I have a bunch of small, minor grammars from the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. Weird to read some of them.

7

Junja:

Have you tried using a proxy? You know, copying the address from Google Books, eg:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uhbPDVjafIC

into the field provided by a proxy like:

http://hide7.com/

Works for me in Sweden.

Cheers,
Int

8

Thank you Chris for informing me about Bennet as well as Gildersleeve.

Interaxus, I haven’t ever touched the “proxi”. I don’t know about the pc very much. I guess proxi is set by manipulating the setting of the browser (for me, Internet Explorer). I saw the browser’s internet option, and I found it. But I fear to touch it, my pc might go wrong.

9

The basic of my studying Latin is to see how they translate. Reading translation is the important part of my studying. Then, below is what I am thinking.

In translating a text, the most important key would be to have read things around the text a lot in English and have a basic idea, like the basic idea of a specific history or the basic idea of a specific philosophy or the basic idea of anything specific. By having it, you would be able to translate the text, namely, being able to choose the right meaning of each word. And by not knowing it, you would be left with no clue of translation, that is, being unable to choose one meaning from various meanings of a word.

For example, I have read books on a specific philosophy in English, so I can translate such texts rather coherently. But, I have read nothing concerning Augustinus, so when I try translating Augustinus, I have a great difficulty.

So there is one question.

Most grammars, including Gildersleeve and Bennett and Allen & Greenough, are on reading of classical texts. They would be giving us the key for translating classical texts by their example sentences.

But what I want to read is medieval thought books. Reading the translations of classical texts might not be giving me profit very much.

So, for me, it might be better to study Latin by translating the texts from medieval thoughts with the help of their English translations available, than to read example sentences of those grammars like Allen & Greenough’s. In this way, I guess, I would be familiarized to what field of Latin texts I want to read more quickly.

I would like to get advices on this from experienced people.

I’m sorry for saying quite opposite things, at one time asking if there is a good grammar, at another time saying that reading grammar might be not so effective. But I have two things on my mind at the same time now.

10

There are different kinds of proxy servers: there are those that work as you describe, where you have to set up your web browser to use it. (However, I don’t know if there is very many free such ones.) And there are those which works just like a regular web-site, with a form to enter the site you want to reach. Typically, they will also show some advertisement. The site that Interaxus linked to is of this later kind. Just follow the link and paste the address to the site you want to go. It won’t change any of your web-browser’s settings.

11

I didn’t have an idea what the proxi was. On reading your message, I tried the proxi page, and went to the Gildersleeve page from there, and I could now read Gildersleeve there. Thank you, Alatius and Interaxus.

12

Medieval Latin is different than literary Latin, so I do not get so much into that. I’ve been translating recently some early Christian (both ante Nicene and post Nicene) for a friend for his paper. Syntactically its closer to Cicero’s letters, but there are still some marked differences. I never looked at any sort of grammar for Medieval Latin, since it’s not so bad with just Classical, but I do have Beeson’s reader that I look through every now and then, but I’m not sure what sort of grammar to proscribe.

13

Thank you.

Yes, I search every day at Amazon for medieval Latin grammar in vain. I bought two grammars for ecclesiastical reading, but they were kind of elementary grammars with few explanations and example sentences, though they have drills and answer books. I want to get such medieval Latin grammars as are simillar to Allen & Greenough’s and show lots of hints for reading and familiarize the readers to various styles, and have tons of example sentences and translations.

I have not used “reader”. What kind of book is it? Those that give a text and under it all the vocabulary?

I myself am fond of tackling what text that interests me, rather than doing drills that don’t particularly interest me. And I think continuing to try reading one author’s texts or one kind of texts by myself without medieval grammar book would finally make me able to read them correctly. But I don’t know how long time would it take. If there are medieval grammars they would save me time and I will be able to read correctly more quickly.

14

I, too, am interested in medieval Latin. I find that a knowledge of classical Latin makes medieval easier, because in many respects it is simpler in terms of syntax and style. However, you may be unaccustomed to the vocabulary. These authors tend to differ in difficulty, as some tried to cultivate a “Ciceronian” or classical style.

A reader is a collection of assorted, short texts and exerpts usually chosen for their interest and readability. Try Keith Sidwell’s “Reading Medieval Latin.” It’s designed for someone like you who has grammar knowledge but lacks experience.

A review: “Keith Sidwell promises his readers a selection of Medieval Latin readings that will give a relatively unskilled Latinist a sound introduction to Medieval Latin from the beginnings of ‘Christian Latin’ to the twelfth-century Renaissance.”

http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Medieval-Latin-Keith-Sidwell/dp/052144747X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203021874&sr=8-4

Here is a guide I haven’t used myself, but it looks like it could be useful to you, Junya:
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Latin-Introduction-Bibliographical-Guide/dp/0813208424/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203020792&sr=8-4

Since you are comfortable reading English, for reading practice you might want to acquire some dual language editions of medieval latin texts. I’m mostly thinking of the I Tatti Renaissance Library series, published by Harvard University. They have facing english-latin translations, and include good commentaries and introductions. I would just glance back and forth to the English to figure out the vocabulary without needing to frequently consult a dictionary.

I’ve read some of Vergil Polydore’s “On Discovery” and of Pope Pius II’s “Commentaries.” I thought these two were enjoyable. There are excerpts you can read on the website.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/PIUCO1.html
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/VEROND.html

Most of these works are not philosophical, but literary or cultural. However, you might be interested in Ficino’s (six volumes!) “Platonic Theology:” http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/FICPL6.html

15

Hey everbody

However, you might be interested in Ficino’s (six volumes!) “Platonic Theology:” > http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/FICPL6.html

In my mind, I fashion myself to be some sort of neo-platonist so I tried one of these Ficino volumes which I found to be boring and so abstract that it could compete with some French post-structuralist for the “hardest to understand prize”. Great bedtime reading if you happen to suffer from insomnia - it knocks you right out. Otherwise, I think Thesaurus offers great advice!

16

Thanks, those books seem useful. I once saw them in searching Amazon. I’m confused which book I should buy now. There are so many books to buy. I was planning to order a Japanese medieval Latin grammar which I found this week in Japan’s Amazon. It is expensive for me. I don’t know what the book is like, since there is no customer review (Japan’s Amazon in general has rather few customer reviews, compared to America’s.)

And the sites you gave are very interesting. I will use them as a drill.

I myself too was thinking of using online translations available. The translations of Aquinas and Augustinus are especially abundant on the web as well as original texts. So I was planning to use them. (I knew they were online, but I didn’t use them because so far I strongly wanted to translate only by myself without the help of others’ translations. But now my mind has changed. I can now use those translations of others.) Aquinas’ Latin is easy, so what I should try now is Augustinus. Trying more difficult ones would improve me than less difficult ones. Are there any other philosophy-related authors abundantly given online? Though I consider myself interested in 11 to 13 century things, and for that account I say I want to be with medieval grammar for possible need, as long as something is philosophical I am ready to tackle it, for example Cicero.

That I want medieval reading is the same as that I want philosophical reading. I want to read such only, even in studying Latin, if possible. I, if possible, want to learn all aspects of Latin by reading such. Is there any good text? For example, in reading Aquinas’ treatise-like texts tense (or, what do you say, the expression of time?) is not at all important, so I don’t at all learn to master Latin tense usage by reading such.

17

I no experience with them, but you should look into St. Anselm, Duns Scotus, and Abelard. Also, I’ve read a little William of Ockham, and he’s definitely pure medieval philosophy, and quite easy to read. There should be translations available for many of these philosophers.

I have to say that if you stay primarily with Medieval philosophers you’re going to have a hard time experiencing all the aspects of the Latin language. As you say, there is little need for tense, and sentences are often fairly simple and with few subordinated clauses. I don’t imagine you get exposed to sequence of tenses or indirect speech very often, either. But, this is all fine if this is what interests you. You can always branch out into non-philosophical medieval and rennaisance texts, which are more diverse in their style, and would probably maintain the ‘medieval’ mindset and background.

I was tempted to recommend Boethius, “The Consolation of Philosophy,” but he is very classical in style and I find him more difficult than Cicero (perhaps just because I have less practice with him and the vocabulary).

18

Thesaurus, you really understand me!

I want to focus primarily on certain kinds of philosophical writings, but as you say their Latin is itself simple and easy (though it sometimes gets difficult, when I want to get a grammar), so I often feel I shouldn’t stay reading only this kind if I also want to be adept in Latin language.

I want to know, if scholars who have to deal with Latin are all adept in Latin language, or they usually only know the Latin that is used in their specific fields and don’t know the Latin in general.

Thank you for Boethius, he can be within the range of my interest.