Adjectival Agreement, et al.

Latin Learning Latin
1

I have difficulty understanding the concept of adjectives of the various declensions. To my understanding, a noun must agree in number, gender, and case in Latin. The theory behind different nouns of different declensions is a relatively easy concept to grasp for me. The adjective, to my way of thinking, ought to be easier. You have noun “x? modified by adjective “y.?

e.g. “Porta magna?

“Magna” agrees in gender (f.), number (sg.) and declension (nom. Sg.).

Easy-peasy, lemon-squeezy.

What throws me off is when the case endings of the adjectives start to differ from the case endings on the nouns. What gives?

And then, the whole mess becomes even more complicated with different declensions of adjectives. Shouldn’t the endings be the same throughout all declensions? It’s bad enough Latin has five noun declensions, let alone a varied number of adjective declensions. Can anyone shed some light on this? I know the rules, but what I want to know is the reason why, and how. Thank you in advance.

2

Just remember that agreement in number, gender and case is not the same as agreement in declension. Each noun and each adjective has only one way to be declined. The nominative singular feminine of “magna” is only written one way. Whenever it modifies any nominative, singular, feminine (regardless of declension) noun, it will take that form.

3

So…the third declension feminine noun civitas would be in agreement with magna thusly?

e.g.

“…of great states” EST
“…civitatum magnarum”

4

Yes.

Where it can really get confusing is when you have a masculine noun of the first declension or a feminine noun of the second declension. Consider poeta, -ae (m.):

A great poet is “poeta magnus”

And see how you like this one: malus, -a, -um is a adjective of the first and second declension that means “evil.” There is also malus, -i a feminine noun of the second declension that means apple tree. So:

an evil apple tree is “malus mala”

(where the “malus” is the nom., sing. feminine noun and the “mala” is the nom., sing., feminine form of the adjective).

5

Deus in caelo…quod facere debeo?

6

Are you a heretic?

Dei (plural vocative) in caelo…quod facere debeo?

It gets much easier with experience in reading Latin. A lot of text books and work books have exercises on noun-adjective agreement, which is very helpful.

Soon the five noun declensions become very easy. The fourth and fifth declension are rare, and the lexicon (set of words) of fourth and fifth declension nouns in common usage is smaller.

4th:
manus, manÅ«s, f, hand, (in military context, it is translated as “band”, meaning a small group of troops)

5th:
res, rei, f, thing, matter, affair
dies, diei, c, day

The adjective usually follow the noun, except when the adjective describes size, number, or is a demonstrative (hic, ille), or if the writer wants to emphasize the adjective over the object.

In poetry it word order is more flexible, but by the time you are reading this it will be very easy for you.

7

Shouldn’t it be: “quid facere debeam?” or “quid faciendum est?” :question:

8

I’ve seen this kind of advice in some language textbooks (not for Latin specifically though), which might help:

You can think of an adjective as being three “nouns” (quotations meaning this isn’t to be taken entirely seriously), one for each gender, e.g. magnus would be a “2nd declension masculine noun” meaning ‘the great one’ (where ‘one’ refers to anything that has masculine gender in Latin), magna a “1st declension feminine noun” meaning ‘the great one’, and so on. So when an adjective modifies a noun, it’s used in “apposition” to it like any other noun, except that you choose the matching gender version of the adjective. And just like in Juno Regina, regina will be declined like the 1st declension noun it is, in Juno magna, magna will also be declined like the “1st declension noun” it is.

This, by the way, is also an explanation I’ve seen of the way this use of adjectives developed, in that they were originally nouns used in apposition, but I don’t know whether this theory holds any water.

Hopefully this helps, but if it doesn’t, just completely ignore it (because the English “equivalents” aren’t really equivalent to the Latin). Basically, I’m repeating edonnelly’s point that the declension of an adjective is fixed in itself.

9

Very interesting about the development of adjectives.

1. I think you have the terminology mixed up though. An adjective used as a noun is a substantive.

Example:

Bonus in agro laborat.
A good (man) works in the fields.

Bona pueros et puellas debet.
A good (woman) teaches boys and girls.

Bonum/Bona viro bono dant.

A good (thing) / Good things are given to good men.

liber, libri, m, book
līber, lībera, līberum, free
līber, līberi, m, child

2. Apposition is construction in which a noun or noun phrase is placed with another as an explanatory equivalent, both having the same syntactic relation to the other elements in the sentence. Here are examples:

Venus, god of love, gave a potion to Aeneas.

Caesar waged war against the Gauls, uncultured people, because they deserved it.

An apposition agrees with the noun it is in apposition to in case, but not not necessiarly in number, and does not have to agree in gender.

10

Heretic? No. I mean Deus (Voc. sg.)…equivalent of

Gott in Himmel.

Bah…forgot about the subjunctive, Amadeus…oops.

sigh

Thanks for your help, all. I appreciate it. Hehe. I just don’t know if I have it in me to learn Latin…again. I’ve already struggled with enough languages and their psychotic gender issues. I remember spending friggin’ hours all told memorizing nouns and their genders and gen. sg. endings…all wasted. I haven’t touched Latin in 5 years…it’s all gone. :frowning: I’m in chapter 7 of Wheelock’s, and I’m getting stumped on the third declension, and second declension of adjectives. Very frustrating. I can break through, with enough effort…grr…I just hate rebuilding the same house, after losing the blueprints, if you know what I mean.

11

The blueprints are still there…even if somewhat buried. :smiley: Try something not so strictly didactive and perhaps a little more fun, like Lingua Latina (yes…I know…another plug). It’s half the price of Wheelock’s and certainly is much more fun. Plus, the people here are the best “support system for learning Latin” you can find. :laughing:

Best,
Chris

12

Hmm…everyone seems to say Lingva Latina is the best. Unfortunately, my Internet access is limited to work, as I live in BFE. They do not permit online transactions here, ergo, I’m sunk. Any suggestions? I would certainly love to get my hands on that book(s)!

Thanks for your help and encouragement!

13

You can place phone orders through the publisher toll-free: (800) 848-7236

14

Hehe…actually, an idea occurred to me. I called my local Barnes & Noble and ordered it there. >.< I’ll have it in a week! Yay!

15

Good luck with Lingua Latina, but if you don’t find it meets your needs you might want to give this a try:

“38 Latin Short Stories to Accompany Frederic M Wheelock’s Latin” is supposed to be very good. A lot of colleges use it along with the Wheelock’s text.

It makes getting through Wheelock’s more enjoyable and easier, becauser there is less of a need to to memorize paradigms and vocabulary lists, instead the learning is done through reading.

16

I just don’t see how such rote memorization can be avoided at certain points…besides, I find I learn best that way at any rate…

17

True…at certain points, it can’t be avoided. But memorizing tables outside of any real and reinforced context is going to be either a wasted effort or at a minimum a joyless one. Lingua Latina is divided up in such a way that you’ll, for instance, read a story about two people speaking about falling in love in the past. The verbs in the chapter are a mix of strictly present and imperfect tense verbs. You aren’t presented with any other forms in that particular story until later chapters.

Now, you could sit down with a list of the conjugations of the imperfect tense for all four types as well as some of the irregulars and try to commit them or their patterns to memory. Of course, you’d have to reinforce your learning and make sure you remember the system the next day, and the next, and so on.

By presenting all of the requisite forms for a specific tense in a single, interesting story, you’ll find that instead of having to “memorize,” you can just reread the story…and in a not-so-obvious manner, you have actually seen and understood the forms of all four verb types. Plus, the forms are reinforced in some way or another throughout the remaining chapters of the book.

There are some draw-backs to this method. I’ve found that I’m lacking a bit in terms of Latin composition. It’s one thing to recognize a verb’s conjugation…it’s quite another to come up with it on your own. That’s where additional reinforcement is, at least for me, necessary. The goal of Lingua Latina is to get you reading…and to that end it does not fall short. However, I’ve found that I do need additional reinforcement of grammatical concepts and paradigms if I wish to compose in Latin.

Best,
Chris

18

Latin gender is not that difficult to memorize. Gender follows certain rules, except when a noun is a certain gender by “nature”. Third declension nouns usually follow this pattern. It is easy to miss because it’s in the footnotes in Wheelock’s.

3rd declension
MASCULINE
-or, -oris
amor, amoris, m, love
labor, laboris, m, labor, work, toil; a work, production
mos, moris, m, habit, customer, manner (pl. habits, morals)
arbor, arboris, f, tree (trees, roots, and nuts are feminine by nature)
-tor, -toris
victor*, victoris, m, victor
scriptor, scriptor[/b], m, scribe

FEMININE
-tas, -tatis
veritas, veritatis, f, truth
libertas, libertatis, f, liberty, freedom, emancipation
-tus, -tutis
virtus, virtutis, f, f, manliness, courage, excellence, character, worth, virtue
senectus, senectutis, f, old age
-tudo, -tudinis
multitudo, multitudinis, f, multitude
-tio, -tionis
natio, nationis, f, nation
oratio, orationis, f, oration, speech

NEUTER
-us (not to be confused with -tus, -tutis)
corpus, corporis, n, body
tempus, temporis, n, time, occasion, opportunity
genus, generis, n, orgin, kind, type, class, clan
-men
carmen, carminis, n, song, poem
nomen, nominis, n, name
-e
mare, maris, n, sea
-al
animal, animalis, n, animal
-ar
(can’t think of examples)

If you take note of the rules you will quickly notice patterns and not have to think about it. They are on p. 44 in Wheelock’s. “Memorizing” gender becomes automatic.

Organizing the third declension nouns by gender when learning them will help you see the patterns more clearly. You could also write the endings that determine gender in different colors (one for each gender).

1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th declensions are much more straight forward. Third declension is the only one that poses any challenge.