περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἀεὶ τὰ αὐτὰ ἑαυτῷ διανοουμένῳ,
I don’t know why but all translations get it wrong while the meaning is clear: thinking about the same things as itself the same thoughts, i.e., thinking about itself the same thoughts. I take τῶν αὐτῶν ἑαυτῷ together.
As I read it, ἑαυτῷ is indirect object, “thinking to itself,” as it were, always the same things about the same things, i.e. its internal thought process is unvarying (consistently with its being ἐν ταὐτῷ κατὰ ταὐτά). Your περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἑαυτῷ “about the same things as itself” seems tautological nonsense to me, and “about itself” would be περὶ ἑαυτοῦ.
Note really a tautology, and it makes good sense:
always thinking the same [thoughts] about the same [things] as itself
Without the ἑαυτῷ = “as itself” there, there would be no anchor: “always thinking the same [thoughts] about the same [things]”. Same as what though?
Is “thinking to oneself” a Greek expression? I’m not sure that I’ve come across it before. I’ve got Louis Armstrong ringing in my head when I see it.
I stand by what I said. And I can’t believe that “Same as what?” is meant seriously as an objection.
Well, this isn’t the only place where Plato says this. Here is an extremely similar line in Statesman 278:
…τὸ δὲ ταὐτὸν ὡς ταὐτὸν ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἑαυτῷ προσαγορεύεσθαι.
The whole line here in Timaeus:
…τὴν μὲν ἐν ταὐτῷ κατὰ ταὐτά, περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἀεὶ τὰ αὐτὰ ἑαυτῷ διανοουμένῳ…
Here is the Statesman line in more context, along with my translation. It’s pleasant to see that Plato was hooked on phonics.
Ξένος
λεκτέον ἐπειδὴ καὶ σύ γε ἕτοιμος ἀκολουθεῖν. τοὺς γάρ που παῖδας ἴσμεν, ὅταν ἄρτι γραμμάτων ἔμπειροι γίγνωνται—
Νεώτερος Σωκράτης
τὸ ποῖον;
Ξένος
ὅτι τῶν στοιχείων ἕκαστον ἐν ταῖς βραχυτάταις καὶ ῥᾴσταις τῶν συλλαβῶν ἱκανῶς διαισθάνονται, καὶ τἀληθῆ φράζειν περὶ ἐκεῖνα δυνατοὶ γίγνονται.
Νεώτερος Σωκράτης
πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ξένος
ταὐτὰ δέ γε ταῦτα ἐν ἄλλαις ἀμφιγνοοῦντες πάλιν δόξῃ τε ψεύδονται καὶ λόγῳ.
Νεώτερος Σωκράτης
πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ξένος
ἆρ᾽ οὖν οὐχ ὧδε ῥᾷστον καὶ κάλλιστον ἐπάγειν αὐτοὺς ἐπὶ τὰ μήπω γιγνωσκόμενα;
Νεώτερος Σωκράτης
πῶς;
Ξένος
ἀνάγειν πρῶτον ἐπ᾽ ἐκεῖνα ἐν οἷς ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ὀρθῶς ἐδόξαζον, ἀναγαγόντας δὲ τιθέναι παρὰ τὰ μήπω γιγνωσκόμενα, καὶ παραβάλλοντας ἐνδεικνύναι τὴν αὐτὴν ὁμοιότητα καὶ φύσιν ἐν ἀμφοτέραις οὖσαν ταῖς συμπλοκαῖς, μέχριπερ ἂν πᾶσι τοῖς ἀγνοουμένοις τὰ δοξαζόμενα ἀληθῶς παρατιθέμενα δειχθῇ, δειχθέντα δέ, παραδείγματα οὕτω γιγνόμενα, ποιήσῃ τῶν στοιχείων ἕκαστον πάντων ἐν πάσαις ταῖς συλλαβαῖς τὸ μὲν ἕτερον ὡς τῶν ἄλλων ἕτερον ὄν, τὸ δὲ ταὐτὸν ὡς ταὐτὸν ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ἑαυτῷ προσαγορεύεσθαι.
Mr. Stranger:
It must be said, since you’re at least ready to follow. Because we no doubt know children, when they begin to become acquainted with the letters–
Kid Socrates:
What exactly?
Mr. Stranger:
That they distinguish well enough each of the elements in the shortest and easiest of the syllables, and become able to speak the truth about them.
Kid Socrates:
Obviously.
Mr. Stranger:
And in other syllables they are again ignorant about these very same and are mistaken in word and opinion.
Kid Socrates:
Definitely.
Mr. Stranger:
So isn’t it possible to easily and beautifully lead them in the following way to the elements that are not yet known?
Kid Socrates:
How?
Stranger:
First, to lead them to those elements in which they understand these same correctly, and then having led them, to place them beside the ones that are not yet known, and placing them side by side to demonstrate the same relation and nature existing in the conjunction, until the correctly understood elements should be set down with all of the unknown elements, and having been shown, and becoming examples in this way, they should cause to be defined each of all the elements in all of the syllables, the different one as being different from the others, and the same one as always being the same in accordance with those same to itself.
ok ill read it after the sophist