3 little problems

Latin Learning Latin
1

saluete omnes

I have some problems with these sentences. I hope you can help me out.

Plinius, Epistula IX, 36
uenor aliquando, sed non sine pugillaribus, ut, quamuis nihil ceperim, non nihil referam

“sometimes I go hunting but not without my notebooks, so that I, even if I … anything, do not bring back nothing”

I don’t understand the ceperim: why perfect subjunctive? how would you translate it? which tense would you use in English and why?

Seneca, Epistula moralis 7
adeo nemo nostrum, qui cum maxime concinnamus ingenium, ferre impetum uitiorum tam magno comitatu uenientium potest

“none of our people, …, can in this degree resist an attack of vices coming from such a crowd”

I don’t understand the relative clause: what is its meaning? how would you translate it?

Cicero, Pro M. Caelio, 32
sin ista muliere remota nec crimen ullum nec opes ad oppugnandum M. Caelium illis relinquuntur, quid est aliud, quod nos patroni facere debeamus, nisi ut eos, qui insectantur, repellamus?

“but if, after that woman has been removed, neither any accusation nor means for attacking M. Caelius remain for them, what else is there, which we the defense should do, if we don’t reject those, who pursue?”

My problem is with the uses of the subjunctive. Can you help me and explain debeamus, insectantur, and repellamus? Further, what syntax connects nisi ut eos … repellamus with the rest? I am not sure my translation of that part is very good.

tantissimas uobis gratias :smiley:

2

Perfectum conjunctivi works here like past perfect does in English – it means that this action precedes the other, which is in praesens conjunctivi.

The meaning is something like: “…so that I wouldn’t come home with empty hands, even if I don’t catch anything” (I will bring home my tablets, if I can’t bring the game.

3

Thanks very much for your help. I understand the consecutio temporum as you explain it, but I just wondered: if you say ceperim should work list past perfect in English, wouldn’t you say: “even if I hadn’t caught anything”? I am not sure whether to render the tense precisely as it is, or whether I might have a reason for using the present tense.

If you could help me out with the other two, too, I’d be very much obliged to you :smiley:

4

The Latin subjunctive is also translated as the English conditional (i.e. “would”); therefore I would render uenor aliquando, sed non sine pugillaribus, ut, quamuis nihil ceperim, non nihil referam as:

“I go hunting sometimes, but not without my notebooks, so that, although I wouldn’t have caught anything, I would [still] bring back something.”

I would translate adeo nemo nostrum, qui cum maxime concinnamus ingenium, ferre impetum uitiorum tam magno comitatu uenientium potest thus:

“So far, none of us — we who greatly cultivate our character — can withstand the shock of the approaching vices with so great a retinue.”

Sounds pretty high-minded to me. I guess he’s trying to say that, despite how much we prepare ourselves against vice, it’s still really shocking. The relative clause seems to be referring to the “we” of nostrum, so I emphasized it as you see.

5

Cicero, Pro M. Caelio, 32
sin ista muliere remota nec crimen ullum nec opes ad oppugnandum M. Caelium illis relinquuntur, quid est aliud, quod nos patroni facere debeamus, nisi ut eos, qui insectantur, repellamus?

“but if, after that woman has been removed, neither any accusation nor means for attacking M. Caelius remain for them, what else is there, which we the defense should do, if we don’t reject those, who pursue?”

My problem is with the uses of the subjunctive. Can you help me and explain debeamus, insectantur, and repellamus? Further, what syntax connects nisi ut eos … repellamus with the rest? I am not sure my translation of that part is very good.

I like your translation just fine, though I might have it without the commas: " … what else is there that we the defense should do if we don’t reject those who harry on with abuse?"

debeamus is “should” while debemus would be simply “must.” insectare can be made deponent into insectari, therefore insectantur, “they rail at [us],” should be clear. repellamus is again simply subjunctive, and you translated it fine, though a more stilted (though possibly more accurate) English might read “if we shouldn’t reject,” with essentially the same meaning.

I don’t understand your syntax question.

6

Hi Luke,

Thanks. Plinius seems clear to me know.

Yes, and as to the selection from Seneca: he is talking to his pupil, and he is telling him to stay away from the crowds, as found at the gladitorial games, so that this pupil may cultivate his own character. Seneca’s final sentence in that letter is: introrsus bona tua spectent. Pretty elitist.

I guess what confused me about the sentence was the relative in combination with a 1 pl verb. Thanks for pointing this out.

Finally there’s the bit from Cicero. The reason I wondered about it was that the subjunctive in relative clauses is not so common: there must be a reason for choosing it, I think.

I understand your point with debeamus - why do you think he used the subjunctive in insectantur?

With regards to the syntax I simply meant to ask: ut-clauses cannot do on their own so they have a role in another sentence. They can be subjects or direct objects for instance. Is it a subject here?

Thanks again for your help.

7

Did he? insectantur is passive, or deponent, actually, but it’s still indicative, isn’t it? The subjunctive of insectantur would be insectentur, no?

With regards to the syntax I simply meant to ask: > ut> -clauses cannot do on their own so they have a role in another sentence. They can be subjects or direct objects for instance. Is it a subject here?

Ah, that’s a good point, I overlooked that; my grammatical expertise is actually a rather wanting to explain the logic of it; however, I know ut does occur in subjunctive clauses, and in this case I think it means “so that” or “namely that,” and has a certain emphatic quality. Maybe then it should be best translated:

" … quid est aliud, quod nos patroni facere debeamus, nisi ut eos, qui insectantur, repellamus?"
" … what else is there that we the defense should do, except namely that we should reject those who harry on with abuse?"

nisi means “except” in questions, which I forgot.

I think it makes sense now. Ol’ Tully sounds a bit more idignant that way, which I like. :smiley:

8

Oops, silly me! :open_mouth: Yes, you’re absolutely right. I thought it was of the 3rd conjugation! It is, surely, a deponent.

It certainly does :slight_smile: Yes, in subjunctive clauses ut can mean namely that (explanation) or so that (consequence) or in order that (purpose) or simply that (in subject and object clauses).