Zuntz: Lesson 4

Χαίρετε!

I’d like to present the exercises from Zuntz, Lesson 4. Please tell me if you spot any errors. Thank you!

Exercitia:

3. Translation English - Greek*

a) Die meisten [Menschen] [sind] schlecht.
Most [people] [are] bad.
Οἱ πλεῖστοι κακοί.

b) Was sagen die Philosophen?
What do the philosophers say?
Τί λέγουσιν οἱ φιλόσοφοι?

c) Ihr sprecht gut, Philosophen!
You speak well, philosophers!
Καλῶς λέγετε, ὦ φιλόσοφοι.

d) Der Mensch ist eine Welt im Kleinen (kleine Welt).
Man is a little world.
Ὁ ἄνθρωπος μικρὸς κόσμος ἐστίν.

e) Sprich nicht [leere] Worte!
Don’t speak [empty] words!
Μὴ λέγε λόγους.

f) Wir jagen Winde.
We chase winds.
Ἀνέμους διώκομεν.

g) „Warum bindet ihr das Fohlen los?“
“Why are you untying the colt?”
Τί λύετε τὸν πῶλον;

h) Die Worte guter Menschen sind gut.
The words of good people are good.
Οἱ λόγοι οἱ τῶν ἀγαθῶν ἀνθρώπων ἀγαθοί ἐισιν. / Οἱ τῶν ἀγαθῶν λόγοι ἀγαθοί.

i) Von Rossen auf Esel.
From horses onto donkeys.
Ἀπὸ ἵππων ἐπὶ ὄνους.

k) Von Eseln auf Rosse.
From donkeys onto horses.
Ἀπὸ ὄνων ἐπὶ ἵππους.

l) Seid nicht Sklaven der („den”) Barbaren!
Don’t be slaves for the barbarians!
Μὴ δουλεύετε τοῖς βαρβάροις.

m) Sei nicht Sklave deiner Sklaven!
Don’t be the slave of your slaves!
Μὴ δούλευε σοῖς δούλοις.


4. Translation Greek - English*

A3 Πολλοὶ κακοί, ὀλίγοι δ’ ἀγαθοί.
Viele sind schlecht, aber wenige gut.
Many are bad, but few are good.

C2 Λόγους λέγεις.
Du sprichst (leere) Worte.
You are speaking (empty) words.

D1 Οἱ βάρβαροι δοῦλοι, οἱ δ’ Ἕλληνες ἐλεύθεροί εἰσιν.
Die Barbaren sind Sklaven, die Griechen aber sind frei.
The barbarians are slaves, but the Greeks are free.

E2 Ἀκούετε τοὺς λόγους τῶν σοφῶν.
Hört die Worte der Weisen! / Ihr hört die Worte der Weisen.
Listen to the words of the wise! / You listen to the words of the wise.

F1 Μὴ δούλευε θυμῶι.
Sei kein Sklave der Leidenschaft!
Don’t be a slave to your passion!

F5 Οἱ Ἕλληνες τοῖς βαρβάροις οὐ δουλεύουσιν.
Die Griechen sind nicht Sklaven der Barbaren.
The Greeks are not slaves to the barbarians.

G3 «Ἆρ’ ἀκούετε τὸν θόρυβον;» - «ναί, ἀκούομεν.»
„Hört ihr den Lärm?“ – „Ja, wir hören (ihn).“
“Do you hear the noise?” – “Yes, we hear (it).”

G4 Ἀκούετε τῶν σοφῶν.
Hört auf die Weisen! / Hört den Weisen zu! / Ihr hört auf die Weisen. / Ihr hört den Weisen zu.
Listen to the wise! / You listen to the wise.

I1 Δίδασκε καὶ μάνθανε τὸ ἄριστον.
Lehre und lerne das Beste!
Teach and learn the best!

I3 Περὶ θεῶν λέγε ὡς εἰσίν.
Von den Göttern sag, dass sie existieren!
Say of the gods that they exist!



*I’m using the German edition, so the English is my translation form the German original and will differ from the text of the English edition.

I can’t see any errors and I tried my best to find one.

This would be a Zuntz issue, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen λόγος all by itself in a depreciatory sense. I would think that it would need some contrast implied to take that sense. (μὴ λέγε λόγους, ἀλλὰ πρᾶττε ἔργα//λόγους μὲν λέγεις, ἔργα δὲ οὐ πράττεις.) Maybe someone knows of a case where it is used as Zuntz has it though.

Thanks for the answers so far!

This would be a Zuntz issue, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen λόγος all by itself in a depreciatory sense.

Interesting point. Without any context, I would have never translated it like this. And I’m probably not alone in this. Zuntz was aware of this and actually gives a hint to the translation in the vocabulary list. I did a little research and all I could find is a line in Euripides’ Medea (Eur. Med. 321, I’m citing the text by Kovacs from Perseus):

ἀλλ᾽ ἔξιθ᾽ ὡς τάχιστα, μὴ λόγους λέγε:
ὡς ταῦτ᾽ ἄραρε, κοὐκ ἔχεις τέχνην ὅπως
μενεῖς παρ᾽ ἡμῖν οὖσα δυσμενὴς ἐμοί.

Mastronarde says of this line: " “do not keep on speaking futile words”, with a deprecatory sense of λόγοι. ". He points to two other commentaries, Diggle on Phaeton and Bond on Heracles.

Anybody have a copy of exactly what Diggle (-found, see below-) or Bond say? Mastronarde doesn’t do more than cite them.

Further words from Medea would certainly be futile here. But that comes from the context, not from the simple conjunction of the verb and noun. Creon has only just praised the quality of her speeches on line 316. He won’t listen to them for extrinsic reasons. He does not seem to be calling them “mere words”, as in the other cases of the depreciatory uses of λογος in the LSJ.

EDIT:

The Diggle reference was available from some Google snooping:

We must not, however, follow Lesky when he translates λόγους in 60 as ‘lästige Worte, müßige Redensarten’ on the analogy of Med. 321 ἀλλ᾽ ἔξιθ᾽ ὡς τάχιστα, μὴ λόγους λέγε, [Dem.] 58.7 (ἐὰν) κελεύητε αὐτοὺς…ἤτοι μαρτυρεῖν ἢ ἐξόμνυσθαι καὶ μὴ ἐᾶτε λόγους λέγειν, εὑρεθήσεται τἀληθές. There λόγους λέγειν does indeed mean ‘talk mere words, make futile talk’; but ὅταν λέγους λέξῃ means one thing, ὅταν λόγους γάμων πέρι λέξῃ means another…

Kovacs simply has “no more talk” for Medea 321.

Line 325 has lost any depreciatory sense for the noun.

(In the Demosthenes quote, does “μὴ ἐᾶτε λόγους λέγειν” mean do not allow them to speak futilely, or do not allow them to make persuasive speeches?)

Following on from the discussion of whether logos can be used negatively I first thought of the comparison logo men ergo de.

For actual references this is from https://logeion.uchicago.edu/λόγος section VI c

c coupled or contrasted with words expressed or understood signifying act, fact, truth, etc., mostly in a depreciatory sense, λ. ἔργου σκιή Democr. 145; ὥσπερ μικρὸν παῖδα λόγοις μʼ ἀπατᾷς Thgn. 254; λόγῳ, opp. ἔργῳ, Democr. 82, etc.; νηπίοισι οὐ λ. ἀλλὰ ξυμφορὴ διδάσκαλος Id. 76; ἔργῳ κοὐ λόγῳ τεκμαίρομαι A. Pr. 338, cf. S. El. 59, OC 782; λόγῳ μὲν λέγουσι . . ἔργῳ δὲ οὐκ ἀποδεικνῦσι Hdt. 4.8; οὐ λόγων, φασίν, ἡ ἀγορὴ δεῖται, χαλκῶν δέ Herod. 7.49; οὔτε λ. οὔτε ἔργῳ Lys. 9.14; λόγοις, opp. ψήφῳ, Aeschin. 2.33; opp. νόῳ, Hdt. 2.100; οὐ λόγῳ μαθών E. Heracl. 5; ἐκ λόγων, κούφου πράγματος Pl. Lg. 935a; λόγοισι εἰς τὸ πιθανὸν περιπεπεμμένα ib.886e, cf. Luc. Anach. 19; ἵνα μὴ λ. οἴησθε εἶναι, ἀλλʼ εἰδῆτε τὴν ἀλήθειαν Lycurg. 23, cf. D. 30.34; opp. πρᾶγμα, Arist. Top. 146a4; opp. βία, Id. EN 1179b29, cf. 1180a5; opp. ὄντα, Pl. Phd. 100a; opp. γνῶσις, 2 Ep.Cor. 11.6; λόγῳ in pretence, Hdt. 1.205, Pl. R. 361b,376d, Ti. 27a, al.; λόγου ἕνεκα merely as a matter of words, ἄλλως ἕνεκα λ. ἐλέγετο Id. Cri. 46d; λόγου χάριν, opp. ὡς ἀληθῶς, Arist. Pol. 1280b8; but also, let us say, for instance, Id. EN 1144a33, Plb. 10.46.4, Phld. Sign. 29, M.Ant. 4.32; λόγου ἕνεκα let us suppose, Pl. Tht. 191c; ἕως λόγου, μέχρι λ., = Lat. verbo tenus, Plb. 10.24.7, Epict. Ench. 16: sts. without depreciatory force, the antithesis or parallelism being verbal (cf. ‘word and deedʼ), λόγῳ τε καὶ σθένει S. OC 68; ἔν τε ἔργῳ καὶ λ. Pl. R. 382e, cf. D.S. 13.101, Ev.Luc. 24.19, Act.Ap. 7.22, Paus. 2.16.2; ὅσα μὲν λόγῳ εἶπον, opp. τὰ ἔργα τῶν πραχθέντων, Th. 1.22.

It would depend on context I guess but given the meanings for this simple word that for example religious wars have been fought over I’m not sure if its such a big stretch.