I agree. The Agora needs more action. Illi Graeci totum forum dominant! Est scelus quod faciunt!
Bene sane! Ibi igitur loquamur! De qua re?
Kilmeny
(Translation way below for Mariek, if you’d like…)
“Bene sane” = “Very good”
“Ibi” = “There”
“Igitur” = therefore
“Loquamur” = “Let us speak” (This is a third conjugation deponent verb - meaning that it looks like it’s in passive tense, but is actually active - in a subjunctive mood. See, it didn’t hurt that much!)
“De qua re” - “About what subject” (“Res” is one of those very rare 5th declension nouns that Benissimus mentioned. It’s one of those wonderful words that means “thing”, and pretty much anything else you can think of…)
Of shoes and ships, of ceiling wax, of cabbages and kings!
“Calceorum et navium, cerae sigillorum et regum!”
What a mouthful!
Kilmeny
[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=229;start=15#1226 date=1057959152]
“Calceorum et navium, cerae sigillorum et regum!”
What a mouthful!
[/quote]
Indeed.
My delicate poetic sensibilities would feel much calmer if you put the complex phrase at the end of this utterance: calceorum et navium, regum et cerae sigillorum. (And I might suggest moving the calceorum before the comma, just for parallel sounds. Anyway.)
This is a standard part of the early poetic traditions of the entire Indo-European sphere, popping up in the Rg Veda, Homer, Ovid (probably via Homer) and the Irish bards.
It’s call the “law of increasing members.” When you list 3+ things, the very last thing needs to be longer somehow, usually by adding an adjective or a genitive.
“Snaggle-toothed A, B and C.” Ack! No good.
“A, B and snaggle-toothed C.” Ah. Isn’t that better?
Let’s not forget the cabbages:
brassicarum
Magistra
[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=229;start=15#1218 date=1057956383]
I agree. The Agora needs more action. Illi Graeci totum forum dominant! Est scelus quod faciunt!
[/quote]
Graeci sunt mei amici quia patria sua est finitima meae patriae Armeniae. (dont hurt me if its wrong i SUCK)
(tricksy subjunctivseses)
I have moved this reply to this thread since it is more appropriate here.
benissimus dixit:
Therefore, it would be Filia agricolae bonam cenam parat, as you put it, or to be a little bit clearer, Filia bonam cenam parat agricolae. Both of course being equally acceptable, though the latter is easier to translate.
Both would be understood, but probably with the wrong interpretation by some.
Your first sentence means “The farmer’s daughter prepares a good dinner.” OR “The daughter prepares a good dinner for the farmer.” Depends on context.
Your second sentence moves the farmer after dinner thereby indicating that it is his dinner: “The daughter prepares the farmer’s good dinner.” You’ll find this kind of mixed-up word order (hyperbaton) in poetry, but not often in prose.
The usual pattern for this sort of sentence is
Nom. Acc. Dat. Verb.
The Gen word usually follows the noun it is associated with.
Magistra
[quote author=Magistra link=board=3;threadid=229;start=15#1385 date=1058227945]The usual pattern for this sort of sentence is
Nom. Acc. Dat. Verb.
The Gen word usually follows the noun it is associated with.[/quote]
And this is why I got confused. The GEN word usually follows the noun.
So in “Bona filia agricolae cenam parat”, I thought that the word “agricolae” was the GEN of the word “filia”.
So as I understand it, and according to BLD, the word order is usually this :
subject – modifiers of the subject – indirect object – direct object – adverb – verb
Of course this is not set in stone. It varies depending on what word/action you want to emphasize and how the planets line up. I’m sure I’ll get a better hang of this with more practice. ;D
[quote author=William Annis link=board=3;threadid=229;start=15#1252 date=1057976487]
My delicate poetic sensibilities would feel much calmer if you put the complex phrase at the end of this utterance: calceorum et navium, regum et cerae sigillorum. (And I might suggest moving the calceorum before the comma, just for parallel sounds. Anyway.)
This is a standard part of the early poetic traditions of the entire Indo-European sphere, popping up in the Rg Veda, Homer, Ovid (probably via Homer) and the Irish bards.
It’s call the “law of increasing members.” When you list 3+ things, the very last thing needs to be longer somehow, usually by adding an adjective or a genitive.
“Snaggle-toothed A, B and C.” Ack! No good.
“A, B and snaggle-toothed C.” Ah. Isn’t that better?
[/quote]
You’re right all round. It is better. And I appreciate the comment on the poetical sensibilities. Sooner or later I’ll get beyond just gasping/grasping for meaning, and actually get presentation in there too… (And Magistra… I do apologize for forgetting the cabbages!)
Kilmeny
I don’t really follow word order when I attempt to write Latin! I slap down whatever feels right emphasis wise :-X
I’m still learning the basics but I’m sure I’ll learn the finer points of Latin and better writing style in the future. But it makes so much sense now that you’ve pointed out how much better it sounds when the longer words are at the end.
what does “sigillum” mean?
I saw someone on IRC cum eo username
Sigillum is usually used in the plural as you can see from earlier posts here.
Posted by: benissimus Posted on: July 11, 2003, 05:28:03 PM Of shoes and ships, of ceiling wax, of cabbages and kings!
Posted by: Milito Posted on: July 11, 2003, 05:32:32 PM
“Calceorum et navium, cerae sigillorum et regum!”
This is the entry form the Lewis & Short Dictionary found at the Perseus Project.
sĭgilla , ōrum (sing.: SIGILLVM VOLKANI, Inscr. Marin. Fratr. Arv. p. 357; v. also infra, II.), n. dim. [signum] .
I. Little figures or images: apposuit patellam, in quā sigilla erant egregia, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 22, § 48 : Tyrrhena sigilla, Hor. Ep. 2, 2, 180 : parva, Lact. 2, 4, 19 : perparvula, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 43, § 85 ; Plin. 36, 24, 59, § 183; Ov. A. A. 1, 407: quattuor certamina brevibus distincta sigillis, woven or wrought in, id. M. 6, 86.-- Of the figures on seal-rings: sigilla anulo imprimere, Cic. Ac. 2, 26, 86 .–
b. Transf., a seal, Hor. Ep. 1, 20, 3; Vulg. Apoc. 5, 1; 6, 1 et saep.-- _ast;
II. In the sing. for signum, a sign, mark, trace, Ven. Vit. S. Mart. 2, 326.
Here’s the address for the entry. If you go there, you’ll see that more information is given.
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3D%2344190<br />
Magistra
I think you’re all getting a bit ahead of yourselves! of cabbages and kings… that’s not a genitive “of”! You must use DE+Abl.!
Sorry to burst your poetic bubble 
You’re absolutely right!! I think everyone keyed off of the word “of” which the genitive case represents. However, in the original context the “of” = “about” which is “de”.
Maximas gratias!
Magistra
Just for fun – more Lewis Carroll in Latin.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/iabervocius.html<br />
Word order?? Are most of these “real words”?
Magistra
Yes, Benissimus is right (again)… It should be “de”. And Magistra is right, too - I was the keying on the word “of” which triggered so many genitives… I’ll stand by the ‘sigillorum’, though, as part of “wax of seals” = sealing wax!
And on Jabberwocky (the English version…) Apparently only 2 words in that whole poem are not “real”. One is ‘vorpol’ (as in - “He took his vorpol blade in hand” (I think I spelled it wrong…), and I don’t remember the other, although it might be ‘snicker-snack’, as in “what the vorpol blade went”… I can’t speak for the accuracy of the Latin words, though…
Kilmeny
Since words ending in -a are predominantely feminine … does this mean “Magistra” is a feminine noun? And if it were to be masculinized, would it be “Magistrus” (like domina vs dominus)?