what languages did Jesus speak

Textkit Community Open Board
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Whether it was written from Patmos, Galillee, Palestine, Ephesus or from where-ever is not that important. My point was that he who wrote it did so in Greek. That is an argument in favour of Greek being a common language where the writer came from. (I did not say proof.) Granted, it was written well after Jesus died, so it is possible that John didn’t know Greek at the time of Jesus but learned it at a more advanced age.

Why not Luke but Streeter (and the others you referred to?)

Lack of evidence for the former? Better scholarship for the latter? Those who don’t come into this discussion with the bias that Luke > must > be right, usually don’t think that Luke is always right.

Just a matter of your opinion then.

Who said he read at 12?

Luke did.

Not the Luke I know.

Actually, quite a few hispanic migrants do speak both languages. It’s only the native-born American populace that isn’t bilingual.

What was his point then?

His point was that bilingual signs are not proof “that we each “certainly” speak both languages. It would not only be presumptive but incorrect.”

Maybe I came across hostile. That was not necessary and I appologize. I was expressing surprise at your charge that cdm was lying while I had the impression that you were being antagonistic.

I didn’t say he was lying.

deliberate fallacy - lie, toma/to - toma\to.

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I personally, being an atheist, don’t believe what they tell us.

They say much - you throw away everything?[/quote]
Anything that cannot verified by another, non “christian” source I either doubt or just don’t believe. However this (and the next) can lead us in an off topic discussion

However the New Testament is the only account/record we have of Jesus’ life and acts and words really.
Not entirely true. Actually, not true at all.

OK I know it’s off topic (see above) but I have to ask. What are you referring to?

How possible or probable is that Jesus was amongst those?

That’s the question, isn’t it?




and how do we determine what is truth and what is a lie in their narrative apart from those things that can be juxtaposed against other primary sources?

Lie is a harsh word. Do you intend to say, “What actually happened and what didn’t happen?”[/quote]

If you say that something that didn’t really happen did indeed happen that’s a lie in my book. True, you may have been misinformed and therefore you may not lie deliberately but a lie is a lie is a lie.

There are slews of studies, books, and methods for determining what happened. They are the same methods we use on Suetonius, or the Historia Augusta.

So what method would you use then (off topic question/answer #3 :smiley: )

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Oh, I see. You’re assuming the guy who wrote the gospel attributed to John is the same disciple as Jesus. Yeah, that’s long been disregarded in modern scholarship. Might want to catch up on the last 200 years or so…

Just a matter of your opinion then.

No, it’s a matter of your biases versus facts. Opinions aren’t even bothered with.

Not the Luke I know.

Oh, you’re right. My mistake. He was asking questions and giving intelligent answers in the temple at 12. Mea culpa.

deliberate fallacy - lie, toma/to - toma\to.

Not at all. Use a dictionary. It might help.

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Why Christian documents in particular?

OK I know it’s off topic (see above) but I have to ask. What are you referring to?

Well, for one, there’s the gnostic gospels. And have you ever read through Josephus? And what about the early church fathers?

and how do we determine what is truth and what is a lie in their narrative apart from those things that can be juxtaposed against other primary sources?

Lie is a harsh word. Do you intend to say, “What actually happened and what didn’t happen?”[/quote]

If you say that something that didn’t really happen did indeed happen that’s a lie in my book. True, you may have been misinformed and therefore you may not lie deliberately but a lie is a lie is a lie.

Well, since you said that everything about the life of Jesus comes from the New Testament, and that’s not true, did you lie?

And what about things that aren’t supposed to be understood as historically true, but modern ignorance has imposed such restrictions upon the text? Does your misunderstanding make it a lie, because you misunderstand it?

So what method would you use then (off topic question/answer #3 > :smiley: > )

Very off topic, and very complicated. I’d have to write a paper on it, dear. Normally, I start off by marking out anything supernatural. So no miraculous healings in Tacitus, no Romulus being swept up in the air, no prophetess Cassandra giving divinations, no Achilles whose skin cannot be pierced.

That’s the beginning.

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Hi
In the outside links forum I posted about a language center in Israel. I found the following in a description of the Koine course. I reproduce it here because I thought it had some bearing on our discussion.

Historical Note:
Greek was one of three languages widely used in the land of Israel in the first century. The School of Gamaliel had one thousand students, half of whom were studying Greek wisdom while the other half studied Torah. Studying Greek in Jerusalem, therefore, follows an ancient precedent. (The Apostle Paul may have received his Greek training in Jerusalem. See Acts 22:3. )

Wow!

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Hi
In the outside links forum I posted about a language center in Israel. I found the following in a description of the Koine course. I reproduce it here because I thought it had some bearing on our discussion.

Historical Note:
Greek was one of three languages widely used in the land of Israel in the first century. The School of Gamaliel had one thousand students, half of whom were studying Greek wisdom while the other half studied Torah. Studying Greek in Jerusalem, therefore, follows an ancient precedent. (The Apostle Paul may have received his Greek training in Jerusalem. See Acts 22:3. )

Wow!

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Kyneto -

Some evidence in favor of Jesus speaking a lot of Greek:

  • The gospels quote him speaking Greek.

  • His two brothers James and Jude wrote epistles in Greek. At the very least, this shows a familiarity with the language among His own family members.

Talmid

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Where do they “quote him speaking Greek”? How do you know Jesus didn’t speak Aramaic at first, but the Gospel writers were Greek speakers and translated his words?

  • His two brothers James and Jude wrote epistles in Greek. At the very least, this shows a familiarity with the language among His own family members.

Neither of the epistles of James and Jude state that they’re the brother of Jesus, and most date the epistles to well after the time of either James or Jude.

You can see the arguments at Early Christian Writings, but most accept James around 70-100 and Jude 90-120. The evidence for the two authors being the brothers of Jesus is rather weak, and ignores the option of pseudonymity.

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Hi Chris. Thank you for your interest in this topic.

Where do they “quote him speaking Greek”?

By quoting Jesus in Greek, I mean the frequent statements of “Jesus answered and said such-and-such,” where the “such-and-such” is direct discourse in Greek.

How do you know Jesus didn’t speak Aramaic at first, but the Gospel writers were Greek speakers and translated his words?

I’m not denying Jesus may have spoken Aramaic on occasion–all I mentioned to Kyneto were just two pieces of evidence in favor of Jesus speaking Greek. It was not my intention to address evidence in favor of or against Him possibly speaking Aramaic.

It’s possible Jesus spoke Aramaic on occasion. On a few times when He did speak Aramaic, the gospel writers were sure to give a translation for corban and eloi eloi lama sabachthani. However, the fact that the gospel writers made specific effort to record him in Aramaic and then note their efforts to translate with special attention just adds more evidence that Aramaic was out of the norm for His discourses. Plus it shows their tendency to quote Him ipsissima verba, no matter what language. To suggest that Jesus spoke Aramaic more fequently than these occasions is mere conjecture in the absence of evidence.

I’m not sure about you, but I prefer to side with the best evidence and especially to avoid a side with no evidence.

Neither of the epistles of James and Jude state that they’re the brother of Jesus,

Actually the reference I had in mind was Mark 6:3: “‘Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?’ And they took offense at Him.” Furthermore, Jude does call himself a brother of James (Jude 1:1). If James is a brother of Jesus per Mark 6:3, then Jude likewise. This is simply adding two and two together.

…and most date the epistles to well after the time of either James or Jude.

You can see the arguments at Early Christian Writings, but most accept James around 70-100 and Jude 90-120. The evidence for the two authors being the brothers of Jesus is rather weak, and ignores the option of pseudonymity.

I guess I don’t care about what “most people” think. I have long learned that absolute truth is not determined by majority rule.

Talmid

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You haven’t addressed my question. Let me elucidate - Livy has direct discourse in ancient Rome as normal Golden Age Latin. Does that mean that Romulus spoke normal Golden Age Latin? No. It only says that Livy does. If Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John were written in, say, Latin, and had Jesus speaking Greek, then you’d have a case.

Plus it shows their tendency to quote Him > ipsissima verba> , no matter what language. To suggest that Jesus spoke Aramaic more fequently than these occasions is mere conjecture in the absence of evidence.

You’re assuming that the gospel writers were eye-witnesses. Suetonius has Caesar saying “kai su teknon” - does that mean that Caesar actually said it (especially when you consider that another historian said Caesar didn’t say anything at all)? Does that mean that Suetonius was an eye-witness? Not at all. It only means that Mark’s sources had Aramaic here.

I’m not sure about you, but I prefer to side with the best evidence and especially to avoid a side with no evidence.

Your post shows that you’re not qualified to make such a statement.

Actually the reference I had in mind was Mark 6:3: “‘Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?’ And they took offense at Him.” Furthermore, Jude does call himself a brother of James (Jude 1:1). If James is a brother of Jesus per Mark 6:3, then Jude likewise. This is simply adding two and two together.

Where’s the evidence that the author of the epistle of James was the brother of Jesus? There were many Jameses back then.

I guess I don’t care about what “most people” think. I have long learned that absolute truth is not determined by majority rule.

Oh right - absolute truth is not determined by hundreds of years of scholarship - it’s determined by what you believe. YOU, talmid, are the final arbiter of truth. No scholar shall stand in the way of what YOU believe! Why, you’re just like GOD! :unamused:

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Hi Chris. Thank you again for your continued interest in this topic.

Undoubtedly we aren’t going to agree on these matters, so I wish not to address the majority of your responses to avoid us both wasting time. I do wish to address this comment however:

Oh right - absolute truth is not determined by hundreds of years of scholarship - it’s determined by what you believe. YOU, talmid, are the final arbiter of truth. No scholar shall stand in the way of what YOU believe! Why, you’re just like GOD!

In a debate, one of the rules of proper etiquette is to provide an accurate reflection of your oponent’s view. I certainly hope I have been fair to address your views with accuracy to the best as I can determine.

Absolute truth is not determined by “hundreds of years of scholarship”–this should be obvious especially since the majority views of scholarship often shift. Nor is absolute truth determined by what “talmid, the final arbiter of truth” believes. Absolute truth stands with God alone, and what He says is true, is true indeed, whether one believes it or not.

This is my view. Please refrain from misreprenting me through implied accusations if you wish to address me in an honorable debate.

Talmid

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Where’s White Octave when you need him? I used to enjoy it when he kicked you around and made you look like the know-nothing little brat that you are. Would be great if he came back.

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Ohhh-kay.

Time for milk and cookies, then a nap. Here’s a lolcat:

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Chris, you may be doing your best to win an argument but doing so at the cost of decency and good manners does not speak in your favour.

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Euphony -

Where’s White Octave when you need him? I used to enjoy it when he kicked you around and made you look like the know-nothing little brat that you are. Would be great if he came back.

LOL! Actually I don’t mind when someone wants to get a little cocky with me. It makes me giggle sometimes.

I’ve been in Chris’ shoes myself in the heat of the moment debating my foes. Fortunately I’ve outgrown that stage, but I’m sure Chris will mellow out the older he gets.

I have no doubt he’s an intelligent person,…just needs a little time to gain manners to match his high IQ.

Talmid

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εἰς ἀγο?ῇ σου…
William, can you explain the dative after εἰς?

('pears this thread needs a break anyway, no?)

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Kyneto -

Quote:

However, the fact that the gospel writers made specific effort to record him in Aramaic and then note their efforts to translate with special attention just adds more evidence that Aramaic was out of the norm for His discourses. Plus it shows their tendency to quote Him ipsissima verba, no matter what language

I agree with this logic completly!

Wow–I thought for sure everybody on this forum would disagree with me! It’s nice to see I have an ally.

Talmid