What kind of Latin texts should I read ?

Latin Learning Latin
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I remember you once said you used to be interested in Indian philosophy but lost interest in that, I think it was a few years ago and you have apparently changed your mind now. This probably isn’t the best place to engage in a philosophical discussion but I think the issues (emptiness, anatman, dependent origination) discussed in Buddhist philosophy are more profound than mediaeval and classical Latin philosophy too. It was a shame that Pyrrhonism died out in the West although from the 16th century, with translations of Sextus Empiricus and philosophers like Montaigne and David Hume, Western philosophy started to cover similar ground again. Gallica has a 16th century Latin translation of Sextus Empiricus.

If you’re still interested in Latin, I think you should really read Orberg’s Lingua Latina series. It will get you actually reading Latin rather than translating which seems to be your current problem and causing you boredom. Most Renaissance magical texts are actually very straightforward, the language is quite simple and most of the time practical, telling you about tools to use and what forms the spirits appear in; conjurations can be a bit more convoluted and have barbarous names.

If you’re interested in Buddhism I think you should learn Tibetan if you haven’t already (I think you mentioned having a degree in Indian philosophy before?). Classical texts lost in Sanskrit are still available in Tibetan, even those unavailable in Chinese, though of course in many cases the Chinese translations might preserve an older tradition, and there is a long native commentarial tradition as well. With all respect to East Indian Buddhism, I think Tibetan Buddhism preserves most of the teachings and practices of Indian Buddhism before its end.

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My post today is very long, so please read only the passages in thick letters, if you don’t have time.


quendidil wrote :

I remember you once said you used to be interested in Indian philosophy but lost interest in that, I think it was a few years ago and you have apparently changed your mind now.



If you’re interested in Buddhism I think you should learn Tibetan if you haven’t already (I think you mentioned having a degree in Indian philosophy before?).

Thank you, quendidil ! :smiley: How surprising that you remember me from a communication of several years ago.
I majored in Indian Philosophy at university (I wanted to study Buddhism at first), but then I was curious of too many things, and couldn’t focus on Indian Philosophy only, and in the end I dropped out from the school, though I have kept studying Sanskrit bit by bit even after that.




quendidil wrote :

If you’re interested in Buddhism I think you should learn Tibetan if you haven’t already

If I start studying Tibetan also for Buddhism study, I would have to abandon Latin and Greek completely.
I am sorry to throw away what I have so eagerly studied these years. (That is, of course, the reason I can’t smoothly move to Buddhism. They pull me back.)
Or do you say there is some way to keep them all at my hand ? You seem to be a very erudite person of extensive learning. I wonder whether you have got your wide knowledge by simultaneous studying or by studying one by one taking a long period of life-time.



quendidil wrote :

Most Renaissance magical texts are actually very straightforward, the language is quite simple and

Yes, I have thought so. Academic writings’ Latin after the medieval era in general seems to be simple and easy and written with a small vocabulary. Then, there would be no need of laborious dictionary-consultation about the Renaissance magical texts. Their Latin so easy, I would not have to abandon it when I have moved to Buddhism.





quendidil wrote :

It was a shame that Pyrrhonism died out in the West although from the 16th century, with translations of Sextus Empiricus and philosophers like Montaigne and David Hume, Western philosophy started to cover similar ground again. Gallica has a 16th century Latin translation of Sextus Empiricus.

In what point do Sextus Empiricus and Buddhism resemble ?
Scepticism ?
Then it is not what I like Buddhism for.
I am interested in the Buddhist practical philosophy on how to oberseve oneself (yoga) and control the pains (of body especially), not the metaphysical argument of, for example, Madyamaka.





quendidil wrote :

If you’re still interested in Latin, I think you should really read Orberg’s Lingua Latina series. It will get you actually reading Latin rather than translating which seems to be your current problem and causing you boredom.

No, I am enjoying the labor of meticulous dictionary-consultation. It is a pain, a big physical pain, but it is also interesting to think how to lessen the physical pain of that labor and how to make the labor more well-ordered. The process, as I feel, will make me wiser, able to work at every thing through some systematical procedure.

But as you recommend me Lingua Latina, I am beginning to feel like trying it.
You mean with Lingua Latina, one gets able to read difficult Latin of Roman era fluently ?
Then I ask you, if I take up Lingua Latina series, how long am I going to study with them before I get able to read fluently ?
And one more question, are the fluent readers who have gone through the Lingua Latina series able to deal with difficult points in a text better than the readers who always consult large dictionary meticulously ? I don’t think so. I feel, if I start studying with Langua Latina, I had better continue the training of dictionary-consultation, too, for that reason.

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quendidil wrote :

If you’re still interested in Latin, I think you should really read Orberg’s Lingua Latina series. It will get you actually reading Latin rather than translating which seems to be your current problem and causing you boredom.

No, I am enjoying the labor of meticulous dictionary-consultation. It is a pain, a big physical pain, but it is also interesting to think how to lessen the physical pain of that labor and how to make the labor more well-ordered. The process, as I feel, will make me wiser, able to work at every thing through some systematical procedure.

But as you recommend me Lingua Latina, I am beginning to feel like trying it.
You mean with Lingua Latina, one gets able to read difficult Latin of Roman era fluently ?
Then I ask you, if I take up Lingua Latina series, how long am I going to study with them before I get able to read fluently ?
And one more question, are the fluent readers who have gone through the Lingua Latina series able to deal with difficult points in a text better than the readers who always consult large dictionary meticulously ? I don’t think so. I feel, if I start studying with Langua Latina, I had better continue the training of dictionary-consultation, too, for that reason.

I don’t consider myself erudite at all (very likely, I am much younger than you :slight_smile: ) but several polyglots who have studied at least 10+ languages have remarked that around 15 minutes a day per language is a bare minimum for keeping knowledge of that language active. Comparing reading fluently without a dictionary, which Lingua Latina will help with, to consulting a dictionary, I believe the former will allow you to spend time more efficiently and cover more content. There might be the occasional unfamiliar use of a word that you come across without understanding, a dictionary and reference grammar would be helpful in that case.

You might also like to read up about spaced repetition systems which could help in maintaining your knowledge.

That is good and in fact Madhyamaka philosophy merely establishes the point of view as a result of meditation; many Yogacarins still do not accept the full implications of Madhayamaka philosophy although they may be accomplished meditators. However, why don’t you read more about Buddhism in Japanese or Chinese? Personally, I do not like the direction Japanese Zen has taken with the abolition of vinaya and the stages of meditation in general but there must be original texts available in Japanese translation for you. The Chinese Chan system might maintain a stronger meditative tradition. Still, I don’t think physical body exercises are taught in much detail in Chan outside of the descendants of Shaolin Temple :laughing: . Tibetan Buddhism does however have a long tradition of physical yoga (yantra yoga) and other yogas. In fact, the root text of yantra yoga, translated by Vairotsana into Tibetan pre-dates any of the subsequent hatha yoga texts. If you are interested in magical texts, the Buddhist equivalent would be the tantras – some are available in Classical Chinese but far more are only in Tibetan.

Theravada Buddhism also has a long meditative tradition rooted in the sutras. The Vipassana movement organizes 10-day retreats teaching the basics of shamatha and a brief introduction to vipasyana worldwide.

Anyway, this probably isn’t an appropriate place to discuss Buddhism and I am not a qualified teacher; I’m just mentioning certain things which you might be interested in following up on your own. My personal practice is based on Dzogchen.

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quendidil. I feel I am advised really cordially. Thank you very much. :smiley:
Though I am still uncertain about which direction to choose, something in my mind is influenced and oriented somewhere by you.




quendidil wrote :

My personal practice is based on Dzogchen.

Are you a practitioner of Buddhism ?




If you are interested in magical texts, the Buddhist equivalent would be the tantras – some are available in Classical Chinese but far more are only in Tibetan.

I’m not very interested in the tantra.
I’m just interested in the Western magic and occult culture.




In Latin or Greek writings, are there such texts as resemble Buddhism ?
I mean, are there texts written about the self-observation of body (as well as of mind) from the inner side (like yoga in Buddhism) for the purpose of medical study ? (As you know, Buddhism’s primary purpose is to free oneself from all kinds of pain, pysical, mental, so I say it’s a kind of medicine.)
How about medical texts and magical texts (if magical texts are treating the diseases and cures as demonic spirits’ work and describing how to control them) in those languages ?
If there are such texts, where do they resemble Buddhism, and where do they differ from it ?

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Yes, I am a practitioner of Buddhism

As far as I know, there are very limited writings on traditions similar to Eastern meditation and yoga in Greek and Latin. The Neoplatonists and Gnostics, among other schools, very likely had similar traditions but there are very vaguely touched upon in the extant writings we have of them.

The Christians have their own contemplative traditions which I cannot really speak much of, but from what little I know, besides some modern Catholic priests who have contact with Eastern religions, their methods differ greatly. I know some modern Christians, usually Catholic, do use “Maranatha” or other phrases from the Bible essentially as mantras/dharanis but they don’t write in Latin.

Dioscorides included descriptions of herbs warding away demons in his Materia Medica, and the Testament of Solomon also describes demons causing various illnesses and which herbs will drive them away. Demons remained a part of medical theory throughout the medieval period as far as I know, they are a feature in Arab medical theory, based on the four humours.

Demons are a part of traditional Tibetan and Chinese medicine too, though modern TCM practitioners might whitewash it or be unaware of it since the PRC while still allowing qi as a part of TCM curricula, have tried to eliminate spirits as a part of TCM theory, Tibetans are more open about that. Tibetan medicine actually has some influence from Greek medicine as well, through translations from Persian. Of course, calling spirits who cause afflictions “demons” in a Buddhist framework isn’t exactly fitting – they could be of any of the 6 classes of beings. Also, the fundamental aetiology of all illnesses in Tibetan medicine are the three poisons. I don’t know more about the specifics of the practices in Tibetan medicine to say much more, but I suspect they would largely be the same with burning and ingestion of certain herbs and substances; prayer and meditation could be a part of the cure in many ailments though.

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You know every thing !
It’s a wonderful thing to be advised by a wise person like you, though you are younger than I.
I am already in my 30’s but still a very foolish guy who cannot focus on any study.
I want to focus on something, but I am always pulled in different directions.
I feel Buddhism is most important for me both as an object of learning and study and as an object of life, but cannot focus on it.
I want to abandon things that I feel faintly in the bottom of my heart are not at all important for my life, though they could be the objects of study-life, like Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, magic, etc..
Do you think I should focus on Buddhism ?
Tell me, honestly.




quendidil wrote :

Dioscorides included descriptions of herbs warding away demons in his Materia Medica, and the Testament of Solomon also describes demons causing various illnesses and which herbs will drive them away. Demons remained a part of medical theory throughout the medieval period as far as I know, they are a feature in Arab medical theory, based on the four humours.

It’s interesting. The combination of demonology and medical study is fascinating.
The texts’ Latin being easy, I might be able to learn and study about them when I move to Buddhism.
Thank you.





Also, the fundamental aetiology of all illnesses in Tibetan medicine are the three poisons. I don’t know more about the specifics of the practices in Tibetan medicine to say much more, but I suspect they would largely be the same with burning and ingestion of certain herbs and substances; prayer and meditation could be a part of the cure in many ailments though.

Interesting. Though I have never read much about Tibetan Buddhism, I feel now it is very interesting, even important.

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I think Buddhism might be of more use with regards to applying its practice to your daily life than e.g. Aquinas, but if you’re interested in the rest and translating with a dictionary is too time-consuming I think you could at least read them in translation.

I was unclear in the last post; Dioscorides and the ToS are in Greek. The ToS seems to be the basis for some later medieval Latin/Romance works variously titled De officiis spirituum and similar, though they lack the medical content and are more concerned with the powers of the spirits in serving the magician. There is an Arabic grimoire called the Book of Deadly Names published by Ishtar Publishing with 72 spirits with a strong focus on medical cures for ailments caused by these spirits but I don’t know how authentic it is. Ishtar Publishing provides a dual Arabic-English text though.

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quendidil wrote :

I think Buddhism might be of more use with regards to applying its practice to your daily life than e.g. Aquinas, but if you’re interested in the rest and translating with a dictionary is too time-consuming I think you could at least > read them in translation> .

Yes, and I can think of just the opposite, that is, to keep studying Latin and Greek and learn Buddhism in translation.







quendidil wrote :

I was unclear in the last post; Dioscorides and the ToS are in Greek. The ToS seems to be the basis for some later medieval Latin/Romance works variously titled De officiis spirituum and similar, though they lack the medical content and are more concerned with the powers of the spirits…

I have read philosophical writings of Later Greek, and the Greek of them was much simple and very much easier than Aristotle’s Greek, just like the contrast between the Medieval and the Roman philosophical writings’ Latin. They didn’t need laborious consultation of large dictionary. How about their (Dioscorides and ToS’s) Greek ? I’m very interested in them.





Can I ask for more advices ?
Today I won’t ask, not to annoy you.