video aut viso

Latin Learning Latin
1

Orberg LLPSI Cap XLII:

Atrox visum est id facinus patribus plebique.

Estne visum est video, videre aut viso, visere Cur?

Nonne patribus plebique dative of reference?

2

Video, videre, vidi, visum

“Visum est” = “It seemed”

That does seem to be a dative of reference.

3

Thanks very much.

4

This is just an indirect object, isn’t it? “The crime seemed savage to the senate and people”.

5

Qimmik

I’m sure you’re right. I’m not paying that much attention to grammatical concepts. I may need to pay more…

6

Are you sure? If this is so I fundamentally misunderstand the dative of reference. From Wheelock’s:

“The dative case is often used to indicate a person (or a thing) to whom some statement refers, or from whose perspective it is true, or to whom it is of special interest. This Dative of Reference or Interest … can sometimes be translated with ‘to’ or ‘for’…”

Wouldn’t “seem (to be)” take a subject complement and not an object? Please set me straight.

(Also in the double dative – dative of purpose + dative of reference – the dative of reference is used like this)

7

Hmm …. I’d call this an indirect object myself. Technically I suppose it might be classified as a “dative of reference,” but what I think of as datives of reference don’t have the universal distribution that datives with videri do, and don’t attach so firmly to the verb. The dative rather defies taxonomy, it seems to me. So many labels: we could invent another specifically for videri.

EDIT. No, I suppose it’s not properly an indirect object, since the construction is exclusively passive. I see Smyth (1467a) classifies the μοι of δοκεῖ μοι as a direct complement of the verb—which is to say very little, but does reflect the unease I expressed with regard to the dative with videri being labelled a dative of reference. Most of my favorite grammatical faux-categories are devised for the dative.

In short: Best not to worry about what kind of dative it is. Atrox visum est id facinus patribus plebique: “That deed seemed horrendous to the senate and the people.” The dative is perfectly normal with videtur “seems," and is perfectly unproblematic until you try to pin a label on it. It’s exactly the same as in English, “it seems to me.”