Unit 29, Part IV

Greek Learning Greek
1

Χαίρετε!
I am beginning to work on translating a paragraph from Xenophon’s Anbasis 5.5.57-10 (slightly adapted). Right now, I have only one question, but I will produce the whole paragraph as I may have other questions later. Here is the passage,

  1. "ἐν τούτῳ ἔρχονται ἐκ Σινώπης πρέσβεις, φοβούμενοι περὶ τῶν Κοτυωριτῶν τῆς
  2. τε πόλεως (ἦν γὰρ ἐκείνων καὶ φόρον ἐκείνοις ἔφερον οἱ Κοτυωρῖται) καὶ περὶ τῆς
  3. χώρας (ἤκουον γὰρ αὐτὴν δῃουμένην). καὶ ἐλθόντες εἰς τὸ στρατόπεδον ἔλεγον
  4. (προηγόρει δὲ Ἑκατώνυμος δεινὸς νομιζόμενος εἶναι λέγειν)· “ἔπεμψεν ἡμᾶς,
  5. ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται, ἡ τῶν Σινωπέων πόλις ἐπαινέσοντάς τε ὑμᾶς ὅτι νικᾶτε
  6. Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους, ἔπειτα δὲ καὶ συνησθησομένους ὅτι διὰ πολλῶν τε
  7. καὶ δεινῶν, ὡς ἡμεῖς ἠκούσαμεν, πραγμάτων σεσῳσμένοι πάρεστε. ἀξιοῦμεν δέ,
    8.Ἕλληνες ὄντες καὶ αὐτοί, ὑφ’ ὑμῶν ὄντων Ἑλλήνων ἀγαθὸν μέν τι πάσχειν,
  8. κακὸν δὲ μηδέν· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἡμεῖς ὑμᾶς οὐδὲν πώποτε ὑπήρξαμεν κακῶς ποιοῦντες.
  9. Κοτυωρῖται δὲ οὗτοί εἰσιν ἡμέτεροι ἄποικοι, καὶ τὴν χώραν ἡμεῖς αὐτοῖς ταύτην
  10. παρέδομεν βαρβάρους ἀφελόμενοι.”

The question I have is about ὑμᾶς ὅτι in line 5. The textbook underlines some words and give a translation of them. In this case, ὅτι means 'because." ὅτι is not introduced until Unit 34, and I am only on Unit 29. I took a quick peak at Unit 34 and am trying to decide if ὅτι sometimes or always takes an accusative subject. When ὅτι means “that,” I believe it is indirect discourse and takes an accusative subject. I am not sure about “because.” I am trying to figure out if ὑμᾶς is an accusative subject or just a plain accusative.

Historic present
2

Just take " ὅτι" with what comes after it, “ὅτι νικᾶτε Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους”. ὑμᾶς is a direct object of “ἐπαινέσοντάς”.

I hope the following combination of colour, bold, underlined and italicised text clarifies the syntax. ἐπαινέσοντάς agrees with ἡμᾶς, what sort of participle is it?

“ἔπεμψεν ἡμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται, ἡ τῶν Σινωπέων πόλις ἐπαινέσοντάς τε ὑμᾶς ὅτι νικᾶτε Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους, ἔπειτα δὲ καὶ συνησθησομένους

I think the position of τε is causing you some difficulty. Look at p. 99.
b. τε, and, an enclitic postpositive conjunction joining clauses, phrases, or single words. (Thus it is an alternative to καί in most of its uses.) A postpositive is a word that cannot be placed first in its clause or phrase but normally follows the first word of its clause or phrase. Thus τε follows the word it is coordinating, and the sequence X τε is usually and X, and it joins X to something preceding X. etc

3

ἐπαινέσοντάς is a future participle, which means it could be translated as “intending to praise.”

Thanks for the τε reminder. I usually remember it but sometimes it is not fully ingrained in my mind when trying to translate.

4

The last two words of line 7 though line 9 are awkward:
7. ἀξιοῦμεν δέ,
8.Ἕλληνες ὄντες καὶ αὐτοί, ὑφ’ ὑμῶν ὄντων Ἑλλήνων ἀγαθὸν μέν τι πάσχειν,
9. κακὸν δὲ μηδέν· οὐδὲ γὰρ ἡμεῖς ὑμᾶς οὐδὲν πώποτε ὑπήρξαμεν κακῶς ποιοῦντες.

I tried coloring the verb and the infinitive I think it goes with in green and the participles in red.

My translation so far,
“But we think it proper to experience, even being Greeks ourselves, from you being Greeks, anything good and nothing evil; for we neither ever yet took the initiative doing evil to not one of you.”

5

Ἕλληνες ὄντες καὶ αὐτοί,

What sort of participle is this? Why did you translate καὶ as even? Does this make sense in the context of the whole passage?

ὑφ’ ὑμῶν ὄντων Ἑλλήνων ἀγαθὸν μέν τι πάσχειν κακὸν δὲ μηδέν·

Not “anything good” but “something good”.

I think that when you translate the whole sentence you should try to preserve the structure of the Greek so I wouldn’t move πάσχειν so that it comes immediately after ἀξιοῦμεν, even though they are syntactically related. In English too I think you can use relative clauses to link up the participial phrases more smoothly. (we…who are Greeks etc..).

So you could do with smoothing out your translation but you seem to have understood most of this. :smiley:

6

I think ὄντες is a nominative/vocative plural masculine present indicative participle from ειμί. Is that incorrect? I will change it if it is.

I thought “even” or “also” would work. I think the speaker was trying to emphasize that they were all Greeks so that naturally his people would be treated well.

So I should place the infinitive further toward the end?

Yes, the translation is rough. I always have trouble with the negatives, so I tried to be literal and will go from there.

7

Ἕλληνες ὄντες καὶ αὐτοί,

I was not so much asking about the case as what kind of circumstantial participle it was. It can’t be vocative because it has to agree with the subject of “ἀξιοῦμεν”. I read it as a causal circumstantial participle. “Even” to me denotes something “surprising” although I can see you thought of it as an intensifier. I think καὶ here means “also” as the ambassadors from Sinope wish to draw attention to their similarity to the Greek mercenaries “we are Greeks too”. Translating the way you have turns it more into a concessive clause. First decide in phrases like this what kind of circumstantial participle it is, then make sure that comes across in your translation. “since we are ourselves also Greeks”.

οὐδὲ γὰρ ἡμεῖς ὑμᾶς οὐδὲν πώποτε ὑπήρξαμεν κακῶς ποιοῦντες.

I think this is a double negative in Greek. I dont think it is right to take οὐδὲν with ὑμᾶς as you seem to have done (“not one of you”). Literally it is “and neither have we .. not at all ever…” So In English we would omit the second negative οὐδὲν “not at all”. I find negatives like this tricky too. Negatives usually apply to what comes after them.

“So I should place the infinitive further toward the end?”

"And we think it proper, since …,(that) we experience (receive) from you, who etc " Just translate it more or less as it comes. πάσχω requires a little thought because although it means experience and suffer “experience” sounds little odd to me when we are thinking of treatment being meted out to someone. “Receive” seems a bit more idiomatic here but it is a small point. Dont forget you can introduce relative clauses in your translation if you think it makes them easier to read.

8

I rearranged phrases and came up with,

“Since we are Greeks ourselves, we think it proper to receive from you, who are also Greeks, something good and nothing evil; for we never took the initiative doing evil to any of you.”

9

Sounds good! Not so sure about “to any of you” but no matter. Onwards and upwards. One sentence to go. :smiley:

10

Just one question about the last sentence:

Κοτυωρῖται δὲ οὗτοί εἰσιν ἡμέτεροι ἄποικοι, καὶ τὴν χώραν ἡμεῖς αὐτοῖς ταύτην παρέδομεν βαρβάρους ἀφελόμενοι.”

Does ταύτην go with τὴν χώραν or ἀφελόμενοι?

11

Does ταύτην go with τὴν χώραν or ἀφελόμενοι?

"Κοτυωρῖται δὲ οὗτοί εἰσιν ἡμέτεροι ἄποικοι, καὶ τὴν χώραν ἡμεῖς αὐτοῖς ταύτην παρέδομεν βαρβάρους ἀφελόμενοι.”

I dont think ταύτην can be the object of ἀφελόμενοι, although when you translate that participle it needs an object of some kind. Also what kind of circumstantial participle is it?

ταύτην clearly agrees with τὴν χώραν. ταύτην looks to be too far from ἀφελόμενοι for it to be part of the participle phrase. I may be over interpreting the Greek here (Xenophon usually has a plain style) but the way τὴν χώραν..ταύτην sandwiches (encloses) ἡμεῖς αὐτοῖς suggest to me X. wants to emphasise the close relationship between the Sinopians and their colonists. That’s the best I can offer at this hour.

Edit: τὴν χώραν..ταύτην . CGCG p. 355 describes this as an Adnominal use. ταύτην expresses the nuance “just mentioned”.

12

Last sentence translation attempt:

These inhabitants of Cotyorans are our colonists, and we handed over this land to them after taking [it?] away from Barbarians. I wonder if I could work “it” into the meaning of the verb or just place it there to smoothe things out?

13

In Greek the object of ἀφελόμενοι is understood to be τὴν χώραν ταύτην and so Xenophon thought (presumably) there was no need to repeat it. (Greek as a highly inflected language is very flexible). In English you need to make the object of “ἀφελόμενοι” explicit with “it”. Because Greek and English express ideas differently, in a translation you have to get the idea across and adding words that are not there in Greek is fine. (Like you did by translating a participle with a relative clause). Where you can you should stick to the Greek as closely as possible but not if doesn’t make sense in English or is not idiomatic.

“These inhabitants of Cotyorans”.

The Cotyoritans are inhabitants of Cotyora. So either “these Cotyoritans” or “these inhabitants of Cotyora.”. You can’t mix them up. :smiley:

Barbarians

It’s probably a good idea not to get into the habit of translating βάρβαρος as “barbarians”. It just means non-Greek to a Greek so its best to think of it as “foreigner”. Barbarian is just too loaded a term in English. (It can be in Greek too but not here I think).

An epic journey this weekend worthy of the Ten Thousand themselves. I haven’t checked exactly but I dont think this text is much adapted from the original Xenophon. Well done.

14

In this, the ambassadors are coming from Sinopian while fearing both concerning the inhabitants of the polis of Cotyora (for it belonged to them (Sinopians) and they (Cotyorans) paid tribute to them (Sinopians) and concerning the country (for they heard that it was being plundered). And when they came into the camp, they spoke (Now speaking for them, Hekatonymus, was considered to be clever at speaking), “Oh soldiers, the polis of Sinopia sent us both intending to praise you because, being Greeks, you defeat the Barbarians, and thereafter will be rejoicing with you because through many and terrible deeds, as we heard, you are present having safely come through.
Since we are Greeks ourselves, we think it proper to receive from you, who are also Greeks, something good and nothing evil; for we never took the initiative doing evil to any of you.
These inhabitants of Cotyorans are our colonists, and we handed over this land to them after taking it away from foreigners.

15

ἐν τούτῳ

This could be “meanwhile” or “at that point”. ἐν plus dative can have a variety of meanings but here it is temporal.

ἔρχονται ἐκ Σινώπης πρέσβεις, φοβούμενοι

“come from Sinope” not “Sinopian”. I am not sure why you chose to translate ἔρχονται in the progressive present. φοβούμενοι: why did you choose “while”. Isn’t it just “they come… fearing”?

περὶ τῶν Κοτυωριτῶν τῆς τε πόλεως

Concerning the city of the inhabitants of Cotyora. Look at the note that M. gives you on p.252.

Try to resist simply transliterating. In English “polis” usually means a political space as opposed to the physical city. Better to use “city”. The same consideration applies to βάρβαρος and “barbarians”. You used foreigners in the last sentence but didn’t change it in “ὅτι νικᾶτε Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους”.

“Cotyoritans” not “Cotyorans”

προηγόρει δὲ Ἑκατώνυμος δεινὸς νομιζόμενος εἶναι λέγειν

προηγόρει is probably best taken as past ( Hecatonymus, (who) was considered a very good speaker was their spokesman).

ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται

Is a form that you often encounter in speeches (ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι etc) and it is difficult to think of a convincing translation. But it is intended to be very polite and diplomatic. So something quite formal like"Gentlemen of the army".

“ἔπεμψεν ἡμᾶς, ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται, ἡ τῶν Σινωπέων πόλις ἐπαινέσοντάς τε ὑμᾶς ὅτι νικᾶτε Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους, ἔπειτα δὲ καὶ συνησθησομένους ὅτι διὰ πολλῶν τε καὶ δεινῶν, ὡς ἡμεῖς ἠκούσαμεν, πραγμάτων σεσῳσμένοι πάρεστε.

“the polis of Sinopia sent us both intending to praise you because, being Greeks, you defeat the Barbarians, and thereafter will be rejoicing with you because through many and terrible deeds, as we heard, you are present having safely come through.”


the polis of Sinopia : see above

ἐπαινέσοντάς : yes it is a future participle but simply “they sent us (in order ) to praise you” is a bit more emphatic than “intending to praise you” which rather implies for some reason they might not.

I think the structure here is we were sent first to praise you then (second) also to rejoice with you. M.'s note τε: this τε is answered not by τε or καί but more informally by ἔπειτα δὲ καί (with adverbial καί). I think I mentioned this in a previous post.

πραγμάτων: πρᾶγμα in the plural is “troubles” or “difficulties”

" you are present having safely come through" is rather awkward. Better to turn it round "because you are present (here) having come though difficulties that were , as we have heard, etc..


Despite my previous post you still write “inhabitants of Cotyorans” :smiley:

You have mostly got the right idea but maybe you need a little bit more care in the way you express yourself. Xenophon took some care with his Greek and we have to respect that.

Unit 30, Part III, Exercise 12
16

There are quite a few comments and replies or questions from me, so I hope I got all the quotes straight:

OK

ἔρχονται ἐκ Σινώπης πρέσβεις, φοβούμενοι

“come from Sinope” not “Sinopian”. I am not sure why you chose to translate ἔρχονται in the progressive present. φοβούμενοι: why did you choose “while”. Isn’t it just “they come… fearing”?

I thought ἔρχονται was a present? I chose “while” because I thought the sentence sounded awkward without it.

περὶ τῶν Κοτυωριτῶν τῆς τε πόλεως

Concerning the city of the inhabitants of Cotyora. Look at the note that M. gives you on p.252.

I did.

Try to resist simply transliterating. In English “polis” usually means a political space as opposed to the physical city. Better to use “city”. The same consideration applies to βάρβαρος and “barbarians”. You used foreigners in the last sentence but didn’t change it in “ὅτι νικᾶτε Ἕλληνες ὄντες βαρβάρους”.

OK

“Cotyor> it> ans” not “Cotyorans”

OK

προηγόρει δὲ Ἑκατώνυμος δεινὸς νομιζόμενος εἶναι λέγειν

προηγόρει is probably best taken as past ( Hecatonymus, (who) was considered a very good speaker was their spokesman).

OK

ὦ ἄνδρες στρατιῶται

Is a form that you often encounter in speeches (ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι etc) and it is difficult to think of a convincing translation. But it is intended to be very polite and diplomatic. So something quite formal like “Gentlemen of the army”.

OK

ἐπαινέσοντάς : yes it is a future participle but simply “they sent us (in order ) to praise you” is a bit more emphatic than “intending to praise you” which rather implies for some reason they might not.

I think the structure here is we were sent first to praise you then (second) also to rejoice with you. M.'s note τε: this τε is answered not by τε or καί but more informally by ἔπειτα δὲ καί (with adverbial καί). I think I mentioned this in a previous post.

OK

πραγμάτων: πρᾶγμα in the plural is “troubles” or “difficulties”

" you are present having safely come through" is rather awkward. Better to turn it round "because you are present (here) having come though difficulties that were , as we have heard, etc

. OK


Despite my previous post you still write “inhabitants of Cotyorans” > :smiley:

I am not sure which one you are referring to. There are lot of “inhabitants of” and “pols of” in this passage.

17

I’ll add a few notes to Seneca’s good commentary, hoping that this doesn’t muddy the thread.

“the ambassadors”: no definite article

ἔρχονται: the present tense here refers to the past (the “historical present,” which I’m assuming has been introduced in your book)

ὑμᾶς οὐδὲν: “any of you” would be ὑμῶν οὐδένα (masculine). οὐδέν is neuter (the negative equivalent of τι). So, “doing any harm to you.”

18

Thanks phalakros. It’s good to see you back here.

historic present: ἔρχονται ἐκ Σινώπης πρέσβεις, φοβούμενοι…

See p. 166 b. In historical narrative the present indicative is sometimes used without its usual aspect to convey historical fact, as a stylistic variation on the aorist of historical narrative. This use is called the historical present (Unit 5.4), and it may be translated into English with a similar present or with a past tense.I should have been clearer here. Xenophon often uses this. “Come from Sinope, fearing,…” is the historic present in English. The intention is to make the narrative vivid by bringing the action into the present “as if it were happening now.” You could equally but less vividly translate as “Came..fearing”.

I said in an earlier post that “any of you” wasn’t right. Thanks for the clear explanation why not!

I was working through your text from beginning to end. You wrote “These inhabitants of Cotyorans are our colonists” for “Κοτυωρῖται δὲ οὗτοί εἰσιν ἡμέτεροι ἄποικοι,”. Either write “these Cotyoritans” or “these inhabitants of Cotyora”.

19

How do I know if a verb is a historical present? Can a string of verbs be in a historical present? I guess the grammar is the same, it is just the referring to past instead of present?

20

How do I know if a verb is a historical present?

Context is everything.

Just read unit 5.4 carefully:

"A special usage found in English, Greek, and some other languages is the historical present. In this usage the speaker or writer narrates a past occurrence but uses the present instead of a past tense, thereby focalizing the action as if the speaker and listener were observing it directly.

μετὰ τὴν νίκην ὁ στρατηγὸς τὴν στρατιὰν ἀπάγει.

After the victory the general leads the army away."

when it occurs it will always be in a narrative of past events.

Can a string of verbs be in a historical present?

Yes.

I guess the grammar is the same, it is just the referring to past instead of present?

I dont quite understand your question.