Unit 24, Part IV

Greek Learning Greek
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Dr. Mastronarde’s Introduction to Attic Greek, Unit 24, Part IV, has a reading loosely adapted from Lysias, Orations, 12.92 and 12.95-97, when the Athenians were forced into civil war by the Thirty Tyrants. Here is the passage plus an explanation of some underlined words:

καταβήσεσθαι μέλλω, ἄνδρες δικασταί, ἀλλὰ πρότερον βούλομαι ὀλίγα ἑκατέροις εἰπεῖν, τοῖς τ’ ἐξ ἄστεως καὶ τοῖς ἐκ Πειραιῶς· ἐλπίζω γὰρ ὑμᾶς παραδείγματα ἕξειν τὰς συμφορὰς αἳ ὑμῖν διὰ τούτων ἐγένοντο καὶ τὴν ψῆφον δικαίως καὶ
σοφῶς οἴσειν· οἱ μὲν ἐξ ἄστεως χαλεπῶς ἤρχεσθε ὑπὸ τούτων καὶ διὰ τούτους ἀδελφοῖς καὶ υἱέσι καὶ πολίταις πόλεμον ἐπολεμεῖτε. οἱ δ’ ἐκ Πειραιῶς ἐξεπέσετε ἐκ τῆς πατρίδος καὶ οὐ βραχὺν χρόνον ἐδεῖσθε πάντων, καὶ χρημάτων καὶ φίλων,
ἀλλὰ τέλος κατήλθετε εἰς τὴν Ἀττικήν.

Underlined words:
ἑκατέροις: when used in the plural, this means each (of two groups)
ἐξεπέσετε: compound of ἐκ + πίπτω; here be thrown (or forced) into exile
ἐπολεμεῖτε: from πολεμέω, wage war + dat.
κατήλθετε: compound of κατα + ἔρχομαι; here return to (one’s) homeland
ὀλίγα, few; (here) a few words
παραδείγματα, (as) examples; predicate noun with ἕξειν, the direct object of which is
συμφορὰς
Πειραιῶς, gen. of Piraeus

Here is my translation so far:

“About to step down, oh men of the jury, but former I want to have said a few words each group, both to [people?] from the town and to [people?] from the Piraeus; for I hope you hold examples the misfortunes that came to you by these [tyrants] and to bring the vote justly and wisely. The [people?] from the town have been ruled over harshly by them [tyrants] and because of these [tyrants] you were waging war against brothers and sons and citizens. But the [people?] from Piraeus were cast into exile, from the fatherland, and not for a short time you were in need of all, both money and friends, but at last you returned to Attica.”

I am confused as to why “ἐπολεμεῖτε – wage war + dative” is preceded by “πόλεμον (war – accusative).”

I am also uncertain of how to place “Πρότερον (adjective – former)” in the sentence.

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πόλεμον is an internal accusative and “ἀδελφοῖς καὶ υἱέσι καὶ πολίταις” is the dative indirect object of ἐπολεμεῖτε.

Πρότερον here means first or before.

Would you like to have a go at improving your translation which doesn’t make a lot of sense in English as it stands? You need to pay particular attention to the grammatical forms you are translating.

For example at the beginning “καταβήσεσθαι μέλλω” we have a first person verb with a future middle infinitive. So clearly this can’t be “about to step down” it must be I am about to step down.

Post script try to remember the points that have come up in previous posts like the definite article sometimes being a possessive.

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Is πόλεμον an internal accusative of ἐπολεμεῖτε?

So far none of the definite article have lead me to translate them as a possessive.
Knowing my luck, all of them will be possessives.

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Is πόλεμον an internal accusative of ἐπολεμεῖτε?

Yes sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I am sorry I wrote the postscript without looking back at the text and in ἀδελφοῖς καὶ υἱέσι καὶ πολίταις the definitive article has been omitted and I thought from memory it was not. Nevertheless whose brothers, sons and citizens are being referred to? Clearly those of the crowd being addressed so they are your brothers etc.

Try also to get maximum help from the words which are glossed. Like each of two groups and (as) examples etc.

Its not far off being right!

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I am about to step down, oh men of the jury, but first I want to say a few words to each group, both to the [people?] from the town and to the[people?] from the Piraeus; for I hope you will hold examples the misfortunes that came to you through these [tyrants] and to bring the vote justly and wisely. The [people?] from the town have been ruled over harshly by them [tyrants] and because of these [tyrants] you were waging war against brothers and sons and citizens. But the [people?] from Piraeus were cast into exile, from the fatherland, and not for a short time you were in need of all, both money and friends, but at last you returned to Attica.

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Thats great. Just some thoughts below which I hope are helpful.

You have translated τοῖς as “the [people?] " why did you leave it like that? Literally it is “to those” and here its ok to translate it that way. " to those from the town and to those from Piraeus” You dont need a definite article with Piraeus.

“I hope you will hold examples the misfortunes that came to you”

You didnt pick up the hint in the gloss “παραδείγματα, (as) examples” . So “you will hold as examples”. I would translate “αἳ” as a relative “which” rather than “that”.

γίγνομαι is “become, come into being”. So if something “comes into being” it “happens”. What you wrote makes sense but it would be clearer that you understood this verb if you had written “the misfortunes which happened to you”.

" these [tyrants]" better to get into the habit of writing “these men”. Yes they are the the tyrants but it doesn’t say that in the text.

ψῆφον φέρειν is “give oneʼs vote” or “cast one’s vote”. It’s an idiom and your literal “bring the vote” doesn’t quite make sense. isn’t this an example where the definite article is a possessive? τὴν ψῆφον is your vote. As you may know the ψῆφος was a pebble which jurors had to place in one of two jars guilty and not guilty. So you can see how this phrase originated.

“The [people?] from the town have been ruled over” You have to remember that this is speech in a prosecution of Eratosthenes one of the 30 Tyrants imposed on Athens by Sparta after the Peloponnesian war. So the speaker (possibly Lysias) is addressing a crowd of Athenians. So make your translation read like that. “You people from the town” and “You people from Piraeus”.

You didn’t follow through my hint about your brothers etc. in “war against brothers and sons and citizens”.

ἐκ τῆς πατρίδος from your fatherland. Another example of definite article being a possessive.

“you were in need of all” better is “all things”.

I think there is a difference between “at last” and “in the end”. But you may think that’s hair splitting. τέλος, -ους, n. (15), fulfillment, end.

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Hi Lukas, This is a distinct improvement over the last exercise of yours that I saw. Most encouraging.

To fasten on one more thing in the sentence ἐλπίζω γὰρ ὑμᾶς παραδείγματα ἕξειν τὰς συμφορὰς αἳ ὑμῖν διὰ τούτων ἐγένοντο καὶ τὴν ψῆφον δικαίως καὶ σοφῶς οἴσειν,
which you translated as “for I hope you will hold examples the misfortunes that came to you through these [tyrants] and to bring the vote justly and wisely.”
seneca has set you straight on παραδείγματα, used predicatively, but there’s something else, no less important: οἴσειν is future infin., and it’s in parallel with ἕξειν above, in an acc.&inf. construction: “I hope that you will hold … and that you will cast your vote …”.

(Incidentally, you don’t have to think of the article as possessive. It’s just that English tends to possessive adjectives where Greek does not.)

Keep it up!

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Thats interesting to note. I was drawing attention to it because it’s something that Mastronarde mentions. I guess one should be guided by context and what is idiomatically best.

I should have pointed out the tense in the accusative and infinitive construction but I got side-tracked into explaining the setting of the speech. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Εὐχαριστῶ!