Unit 24 Part III Exercise 3

Greek Learning Greek
1

Χαίρετε!

In Introduction to Attic Greek by Dr. Mastronarde, I need to translate a sentence that has 3 commas in it. I think (hope) I have the words right, but now I am wondering what the procedure is to start moving words and phrases around? Here is the passage:

“οὐχ οὗτοι τούς τε πολεμίους ἰσχυροὺς ποιοῦσι καὶ τοὺς φίλους προδιδόασιν, οἳ ἐχθροὺς [“enemies”] κωλύουσι πολλοὺς [“many,” “numerous”] ποιεῖσθαι, ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖνοι, οἳ ἀδίκως τε χρήματα ἀφαιροῦνται [“take away”: ἀπο + αἱρέω] καὶ τοὺς δικαίους ἀποκτείνουσιν.”

I think (hope) that I have the words right, but it is pretty rough:

“It is not these [men] both making hostile strong men and betraying the friends, who prevent enemies being made numerous, but them, who both unjustly take way things and kill the just.”

2

τούς τε πολεμίους is a plural noun and means enemy. p 463 (from πολέμιος, -α, -ον )

Why have you translated ποιοῦσι and προδιδόασιν as participles when they are finite verbs? Where does “it is not” come from? οὐχ negates ποιοῦσι.

τοὺς φίλους isn’t this like the “his shield” in your previous post?

in the second part of the sentence " οἳ. … ἀλλὰ… ἐκεῖνοι". They do one thing but those (pejorative) do another.

Is that enough of a hint to get you on track? Apologies for any errors I make its late here.

3

It was not my intention to translate them as participles. I was just trying to put them in the present.

Does οὐχ negate οὗτοι or ποιοῦσι?

τοὺς φίλους isn’t this like the “his shield” in your previous post?

Agreed.

4

I think its best to take οὐχ with ποιοῦσι. These do not make…

5

Can I move phrases around?
Something like this:

“These [men], who prevent enemies being made numerous, do not make strong enemies and betray your friends; but those [men], who both unjustly take way things and kill the just.”

6

This seems incorrect.

EDIT: Lukas has it negating the whole phrase, which is how I read it. It can’t be taken with the οὖτοι alone either.

7

οὐχ οὗτοι ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖνοι “Not these but those”.
οὐχ negates οὗτοι, not ποιοῦσιν, otherwise it wouldn’t come in front of οὗτοι.
What follows οὗτοι (τούς τε πολεμίους ἰσχυροὺς ποιοῦσι καὶ τοὺς φίλους προδιδόασιν, οἳ … ποιεῖσθαι) applies to ἐκεῖνοι as well as to οὗτοι.
Lit. “Not these make … but those, who …”.
In English we’d change the construction slightly and say “It’s not these people who make their enemies strong and betray their friends … but those people, who …”.

Cf. English “It’s not Luke who likes Mary, but Paul, who gives her presents.”
In Greek that would be
ουχ ὁ Λουκας αυτην φιλεῖ, αλλ’ ὁ Παυλος, ὁς δῶρα δίδωσιν. —Lit. ”Not Luke likes her, but Paul., who …”. That’s the structure we have here in the Greek sentence inn the book.

8

As you see from the edit, I second-guessed myself after the original post, and just couldn’t convince myself that it wouldn’t need the relative. Here’s an example from Lysias supporting yours: “ἀλλ’ οὐχ οὗτοι ἀδικοῦσιν, ἀλλ’ οἳ ὑμᾶς ἐξηπάτων καὶ κακῶς ἐποίουν”. Still, I’d be a lot happier if I had examples of longer phrases being used in that construction. It’s really rough for me anyway, running into that ποιοῦσι with its up in the air subject. The Lysias and οὐχ ὁ Λουκας examples seem clear as day.

9

Thanks everyone. Very helpful analysis from MWH. Apologies to Lukas for taking him away from his initial “it is not these men”.

10

No apologies necessary. This is an interesting discussion.

11

Is τε . . .καὶ a pointer that I will be dealing with more than one idea in a passage?

In this case, “Not these . .. . but those.”

12

τε . . .καὶ indicates a connection. x and y or both x and y,

In this case, “Not these . .. . but those.”

Not these.. but those come from the underlined words in this passage. The two τε . . .καὶ pairs are in bold. Do you see that the τε . . .καὶ pairs are not contrastive? But οὐχ οὗτοι …ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖνοι is. I think you are muddling up parts of the construction. Rereading MWH’s post may help.

οὐχ οὗτοι τούς τε πολεμίους ἰσχυροὺς ποιοῦσι καὶ τοὺς φίλους προδιδόασιν, οἳ ἐχθροὺς [“enemies”] κωλύουσι πολλοὺς [“many,” “numerous”] ποιεῖσθαι, ἀλλὰ ἐκεῖνοι , οἳ ἀδίκως τε χρήματα ἀφαιροῦνται [“take away”: ἀπο + αἱρέω] καὶ τοὺς δικαίους ἀποκτείνουσιν."