-um

Cows do, but you don’t need to to sound like a cow. That’s not meant as an insult, Amadeus (although, it would be a great one, wouldn’t it? :laughing:). It means that when you make an “MMMM” sound with a closed mouth, it resembles a cow (especially when you change pitch up and down), and more so than any other animal around. Open your mouth and you have a growl like a dog; close it and you have a cow.

Aperit orem bos at non tibi oportet sic facere ut similis bovis sis. Me paenitet, Amadee, injuriam tibi non dicere volo (at optima injuria sit, nonné, cum ausa :laughing:). Ut dicere volo, ore clauso sonum “MMMM” faciendo, similis bovis sones (et maximè in modulando), praeter ullum alium animalem in vicino. Orem aperi et ad instar canis mussabis; claude, et bovem habebis.

:laughing: Good one.

Still, can’t you sound like a cow if you do a nasal sound? This could be yet another ambiguity, since I think I can make a mooing sound by closing my lips first and making a true M and then opening them to make a nasal u.

Vale!

We really need to Skype this conversation.

Sure, dear Amadeus. I wasn’t challenging your abilities. :slight_smile:
Non dubito, care Amadee. Tuas facultas non volui negare. :slight_smile:

If X then Y, but NOT X therefore NOT Y.
If you accept the logic that omission of a letter means dropping a sound then by the same logic including the letter means including the sound.
There can be other reasons for dropping a letter, one of which could be lack of space.
You would not like to apply the same logic to a medieval manuscript containing no examples of word-ending M, where a tilde or other mark of abbreviation was used instead.

Si X tunc Y, at X non est ergo non est Y.
Si omissio litterae sonum deesse significet, eâdem ratione inclusio sonum adesse ostendit.
Fortasse alias rationes fuisse quare littera omissa sit, ut puta spatium careret.
Casu manuscripti aevi medii in quo omnes M terminantes careant et titulis (~) surrogentur, non similiter arguas litteram non sonari.

When? This Sunday is good for me in the evening. What about you, Amadeus? Quando? Vesperi die Solis vacabo. Et tu, Amadee?

:confused: Come, come, Adriane, you know I meant something else.

Tempting, tempting… Could I join and just listen? I’m afraid my English is far from perfect :stuck_out_tongue: . Plus, I wouldn’t have anything original to contribute. Up til now I’ve only just tried to make sense of both your arguments. :slight_smile:

Sadly (happily, actually) my girlfriend is coming to visit and staying indefinitely starting tomorrow. Therefore I won’t even be posting, likely, in that time period. It’s her birthday, in fact. I’m giving her Lingua Latina! since she’s shown great interest in learning Latin (don’t worry, that’s not the only thing I’m giving her; that’s really just the cherry on the cake). So you two can figure it out maybe. Otherwise we can set something up next week.

When a chance for a joke presents itself, I seldom can resist. It a real problem I have. Sincerest apologies, Amadeus.
Occasione jocandi nactâ, rarò me resistere possum. Vitium serium mihi est. Quod dixi, Amadee, sincerè purgo. :blush:

Until next week, Luke. Have a good weekend!
Usque ad septimanam proximam, Luci. Bonum finem septimanae!

Ego te absolvo, mi fili, sed noli rursus id facere. :laughing:

<?xml version="1.0"?>

Syllable division in compound words. Divisio in syllabas compositorum.





N.B. Priscian challenges Herodian, ca. 180-250 CE, whom he himself describes as the most celebrated grammarian. This is also wonderful evidence of use of ‘h’ in hiatus, and of terminal-M elided in compounds. I can give separate evidence (plus more) that letter ‘s’ in middle of word transfers to the preceding syllable, if it ends in a vowel.
Nota benè. Auctoritatem Herodiani Priscianus invitat (quem maximum auctorem artis grammaticae putavit). Mirabilè, quoque, hoc locus usum ‘h’ litterae cum hiato demonstrat, item elisionem M litterae compositis. Separatim, testimonia dare potero, ‘s’ litteram in syllabam praecedentem quae vocale terminatur transire, et caetera aliorum generum.

Nota benè etiám:

First occurrence of ‘abeo’ in the Aeneid is at line 196, and it is divided ‘ab-euntibus’.
Primò occurrit ‘abeo’ verbum in hac lineâ: “litore Trinacrio dederatque abeuntibus heros” =
“li-to-re | Tri-na-cri- | -o de-de- | rat qu(e) ab - | -(e → j )un-ti-bu- | s (h)e-ros”
In 'ab-(e)un-ti-bu-s… ’ syllabas, verbum dividitur (id est auribus, ‘ab-jun-ti-bu-s…’)

Vide quoque “-i-o” hiatum (quod “i-jo” sonitur, ut mihi videtur)

I only have time to comment on this.

Most areas where Americans write ‘-ize’ are correct, while the British ‘-ise’ is in error (another exception: “recognise,” altered ultimately from “recognoscere,” and that legitimizes the ‘s’ not the ‘z’, which is a hypercorrection of sorts). But the few ‘-yse’ ones should be with an ‘s’, due to etymology, not ‘z’ as Americans will standardize/hypercorrect. So, “βαπτιζειν” → “baptizare” follows, as does English “baptize.”

I thought we were making progress when you said the following:
Cum sic dixisti, nos profectos esse censui:

Oblivisceris Anglicos à Francogallicis talia verba mutuatos esse, sed intellego quod vis dicere. Hodiè Lexicon Recentem Latinitatis accepi et pro “analizzare” (Italicè --Z litteras nota) dat “inquiro”, “exploro”, “pervestigo”.
Remember that the English borrowed such words from the French, but I know what you mean. I got Lexicon Recentis Latinitatis today and it advises “inquiro”, “exploro”, “pervestigo” for “analizzare” (in Italian --more z’s).

The syllable division notions you put forth are beyond baffling to me, Adrian. I cannot comprehend how anyone could be convinced of some of those ideas, if not proposing excess artificiality. Therefore I admit not to understand what you are saying, and await our Skype conversation when these matters can be brought to light — or rather, to sound wave.


Yes, Italian uses a double ‘z’, and Italian is Italian and does to govern our tongue, altho its eccentricities and varieties are of intrigue.

As for French, we are not governed by their tongue either — keep in mind that standardized orthography is a very new concept, and the Transatlantic problems we experience are due to rigidity and ignorance, and spellings with a ‘z’ in this position exsisted alongside those with an ‘s’ through the Mediaeval and Renaissance periods. Besides, being inclined toward the British, as you might be purely for geographical reasons, you surely are not imitating the French coleur with Commonwealth “colour.”

While, on the other hand, “programme” is preferable to American “program” because all the consonants are preserved — why chop out consonants? They inform us on etymology and on history.

Please let us know about the time and date of the skype conversation. I, for one, am quite eager to listen and learn.

You lost me there, Luke.
His sententiis, Luci, me exclusisti.

Luce, while you are briefly on the topic of English language ortography, I’ve been meaning to ask you why you choose to always and consistently write ‘thru’ and ‘altho’ etc. - I know these forms exist, and their phonological justification is obvious. I personally find them less pleasing to the eye, but wh have you chosen these spellings?

This book, for example, will help to understand about syllable division in English (especially §5.4 Syllable Division, pp.76-78 ) . Vide hunc librum, exempli gratiâ:

Rules for syllable division in [spoken] English
(where V is a vowel and C is a consonant and ‘.’ is the syllable break)

  1. break between vowels V.V (e.g., ‘ne.on’, ‘cha.os’, ‘cru.el’)
  2. V1.CV2 (where V2 is strong), otherwise ambisyllablic (in cases where V1 strong and V2 weak or V1 and V2 both weak) i.e., V1C.V2 or V1.CV2 or in between.
  3. If consonant cluster can start a word then all consonants in cluster go with following vowel
  4. If consonant cluster cannot start a word, the second syllable begins with a single consonant or part of the consonant cluster that can start a syllable.

I made a note of some of the points you can refer to from his Chapter 8. Some Consequences of Phonotactics (p136). These are especially useful as background for points that I hope to get to about recognition of the phonemic value of Hiatus and of Word Division in Latin in published research.

Kreidler is Professor Emeritus of Linguistics at Georgetown University.

Salve Amadee

I thought about your question about poetry and speech and found the shortest, simplest poem I could. A children’s verse for the game “I’m the king of the castle, and you’re a dirty rascal”, when you climb up and recite it until pushed off and the roles reverse. Porphyrio, on Horace, first gives it:
Quaestionem tuam de poesi loquellâque cogitavi et poemam brevissimam merissimamque inveni quà m potui. Puerilis versus est circà ludo illum “Ego rex castelli, tuus degener verbero”, cùm ascendis et recitas, usque dum deturbaris, dehinc partes permutabuntur. Primus Porphyrio poemam citavit, de Hortio dicens:

Rex erit qui rectè faciet;
Qui non faciet, non erit.

I recorded it ( http://www.adrianmallonmultimedia.com/latin/rex_erit_qui.mov ) to illustrate how poetry is rhythmically quantitative rather than accentual, but I did raise pitch on word accents. Look at how rhythm overrides rules. Trochaic septenarius [Dum da/ Dum da/ Dum da/ Dum da || Dum da/ Dum da/ Dum da/ Dum (pause)], it scans both as [-^/-^/-^/-^ || -^/-^/-^/- pause] or as [-^/->/-^/-> || -^/->/-^/- pause], where - (long), ^ (short), > irrational measure, i.e., anything you care to squeeze in), and there’s a pause at the end (seven measures in the last line).

By the rule V.CV, faciet should be “fa-c(i)et” = short + long but the rhythm calls for long + (short or irrational). By VC.V we get “fac-iet”. Note also that “iet” is long and supposed to fit into a short beat. In fact, it runs into the next line’s syllable and the unusual speeding + extension on final-t + pitch & volume rise on ‘qui’ indicates word break and line break. Counter-intuitive if you follow only the rules but it’s clear to the ear. Note how the first ‘non’ is short (which is impossible according to the rules) but the second is ‘long’. ‘Faciet’ involves hiatus, of course, and squeezed into the short beat! Sounds as good as a glided vowel (or i → consonantal j) and better than dropping the ‘i’ altogether. In comedy, Allen & Greenough say tribach, irrational spondee, cyclic dactyl or apparent anapaest can be substituted for any of the first six feet; a tribach for the seventh. The same seems true for clever riddles and epigrams, too, such as

Qui de nobis longe venio late venio. Solve me.
I come far and wide from among us (from us I come long and widely). Who am I? --Petronius, c. 60CE --Hair? ) and

Postquam Crassus carbo factus, Carbo crassus factus est.
When Crassus was cremated, Carbo became fat. (–possibly off Crassus’s estate, says Matthews, 'Some Puns on Roman ‘Cognomina’, Greece and Rome, Vol 20, no.1, 1973, pp.20-24)

Here’s what I take from this. Rhythm is everything in classical poetry. When you sing to the rhythm, it’s amazing what can be merged and fitted before you ever need to drop sounds altogether. For this reason, I believe poetry does not necessarily involve anything that compromises the understandability of the phrasing and, if it does, then either the word-order of the verse could possibly be improved or I should rethink my articulation.
Ecce de his rebus quod puto. Arte poeticâ aevi classici, rhythmus res magni momenti est. In cantando cum rhythmo, mirum est quantum mergere et accomodare potes sine opus tibi erit sonos omittere. Eâ ratione, non continuò implicat ars poetica ullam rem quae comprehensionem sententiae constringat. Si aliter, vel dubius est in verso ordo dictionum vel famen meum retractare debeo.

Amadeus, we were talking of elision in Spanish, and, as I suspected, it is as rampant as in Latin and Italian:

http://spanish.about.com/cs/pronunciation/f/rate_of_speech.htm

That you are mostly unaware of it is testament to your easy comprehension of your native tongue, even with all the elisions — meaning that Latin full of elision, by comparison, is quite possible, and in fact is just so.