Thucydides 4.26

Greek Learning Greek
1

This is an extract included in The Intellectual Revolution (JACT). There are a few things that I do not understand.

στενοχωρία τε ἐν ὀλίγῳ στρατοπεδευομένοις ἐγίγνετο, καὶ τῶν νεῶν οὐκ ἐχουσῶν ὅρμον αἱ μὲν σῖτον ἐν τῇ γῇ ᾑροῦντο κατὰ μέρος, αἱ δὲ μετέωροι ὥρμουν. ἀθυμίαν τε πλείστην ὁ χρόνος παρεῖχε παρὰ λόγον ἐπιγιγνόμενος, οὓς ᾤοντο ἡμερῶν ὀλίγων ἐκπολιορκήσειν ἐν νήσῳ τε ἐρήμῃ καὶ ὕδατι ἁλμυρῷ χρωμένους.

I’m not sure about the two αἱ. At first, I took it to refer to the ships (being feminine), but C.E. Graves in his commentary suggests that it is the crews of the ships, which would make more sense. However, I can’t think of a feminine word which would mean “crew.” Also, in the notes, they give the sense “I extend” to ἐπιγίγνομαι. I can’t find that anywhere. I think the idea is of something that comes in addition. The unexpected length of siege (and lack of progress) comes as an added woe. I would be eager to know your thoughts.

2

στενοχωρία τε ἐν ὀλίγῳ στρατοπεδευομένοις ἐγίγνετο, καὶ τῶν νεῶν οὐκ ἐχουσῶν ὅρμον αἱ μὲν σῖτον ἐν τῇ γῇ ᾑροῦντο κατὰ μέρος, αἱ δὲ μετέωροι ὥρμουν. ἀθυμίαν τε πλείστην ὁ χρόνος παρεῖχε παρὰ λόγον ἐπιγιγνόμενος, οὓς ᾤοντο ἡμερῶν ὀλίγων ἐκπολιορκήσειν ἐν νήσῳ τε ἐρήμῃ καὶ ὕδατι ἁλμυρῷ χρωμένους.

Taking it as an unseen again: And a narrow space in a little while becoming a thing for military camps, and the ships not having harbor, some [ships] took (?) food on land in groups, but the other [ships] anchored in the weather. Time brought about a great despair, coming to an unreasonable pitch, the forces they thought in a few days to break a siege (break out of?) were on a deserted island subsisting on seawater.

EDIT: Looking over it a second time, “Time brought about a great despair, coming to an unreasonable pitch” should be more like: “Time presented [them] a great despair, extending it to an unreasonable pitch…”

3

C.E. Graves in his commentary suggests that it is the crews of the ships,

I think what he means is αἱ μὲν [νηες] … αἱ δὲ … refers by metonomy to the ships’ crews, rather than the ships themselves.

in the notes, they give the sense “extend” to ἐπιγίγνομαι. … I think the idea is of something that comes in addition.

That’s right. The prefix επι has the force of “in addition.” But “in addition” doesn’t refer to their despondency. ἐπιγιγνόμενος modifies ὁ χρόνος. More and more time is building up contrary to their calculations [παρὰ λόγον], and the passage of more and more time is what’s causing their despondency. Days upon days are going by.

N.B. I haven’t gone over Joel’'s translation.

4

I have been meaning to let you know that don’t need to put yourself out so much for me…I know you work hard on them, but I don’t utilize your notes, I’m afraid. For revision, I find it most useful to use a dictionary and decent translation, looking up anything I still wonder about in other resources.

On the other hand, if you wanted to attempt it as an unseen first, we could each revise the other’s attempt. I very much recommend it as a method for fast progress.

5

Joel, I’m sorry, but I have to say this. With all due respect, your effort at sight translation is seriously garbled in a number of respects. I’m not sure what purpose it serves to post something like this, which could be misleading to others. If you don’t want me or someone else to critique it, why are you posting this? Believe me, it doesn’t demonstrate that you can take a passage from Thucydides unseen and make sense out of it. I wrote that I hadn’t looked at your translation so as not to offend you, while not endorsing it.

Let’s not start an endless exchange. Why don’t you go back over it carefully, use whatever resources you have available, and try to make better sense out of this passage?

6

If you want my translation, here it is – and this is at sight, except for checking κατὰ μέρος, in LSJ. I read through Thucydides several years ago and recently reread Books 5 and 6, I drew on my prior knowledge of the circumstances of Sphacteria, and I took the trouble to look at the Greek text that preceded and followed this for context.

“For those who were encamped, the place was narrow in a small space; with regard to the ships, since they didn’t have a mooring place, the crews of the ships took turns [κατὰ μέρος], some gathering provisions on the mainland while the others stayed at anchor at sea/on the water. The passage of more and more time contrary to their calculations caused them extreme despondency – {enemy troops] on a deserted island and relying on salt water, as they thought, whom they expected they would utterly defeat by siege within a few days.”

οὓς ᾤοντο etc. is dangling – an anacoluthon.

7

Thank you kindly, my friends. I am envious of those who can read at sight. If I live to be a hundred I doubt I shall ever be able to tackle unseens. I look up practically every word in the dictionary and often consult my grammars. However, I find that exercise quite gratifying. I very often read the entire entry in the Cambridge Greek Lexicon and sometimes even in LSJ, though that is obviously much more challenging.

8

στενοχωρία τε ἐν ὀλίγῳ στρατοπεδευομένοις ἐγίγνετο, καὶ τῶν νεῶν οὐκ ἐχουσῶν ὅρμον αἱ μὲν σῖτον ἐν τῇ γῇ ᾑροῦντο κατὰ μέρος, αἱ δὲ μετέωροι ὥρμουν. ἀθυμίαν τε πλείστην ὁ χρόνος παρεῖχε παρὰ λόγον ἐπιγιγνόμενος, οὓς ᾤοντο ἡμερῶν ὀλίγων ἐκπολιορκήσειν ἐν νήσῳ τε ἐρήμῃ καὶ ὕδατι ἁλμυρῷ χρωμένους.

“For those who were encamped, the place was narrow in a small space; with regard to the ships, since they didn’t have a mooring place, the crews of the ships took turns [κατὰ μέρος], some gathering provisions on the mainland while the others stayed at anchor at sea/on the water. The passage of more and more time contrary to their calculations caused them extreme despondency – {enemy troops] on a deserted island and relying on salt water, as they thought, whom they had expected they would utterly defeat by siege within a few days.”

I couldn’t quite tell whether you were taking me up on my offer or not after the other post, but if so I’ll do my best. It seems very good to me, of course. However, going through to see what I can find using the LSJ and the Loeb here:

First τε dropped.

“Took turns” isn’t a separate action, though you know that, of course. “…some were reprovisioning in turns…” Your interpretation is possible/likely, but excludes the reasonable possibility that Thucydides does not envisage everyone who is at shore looking for food at once.

“Passage of more and more time”, sticks at me more than anything else here. Maybe: Time following on contrary to their calculations also brought about a great despair…

Another τε dropped.

“caused them” is reasonable English style, but ἀθυμίαν πλείστην is a thing in the Greek, not a characteristic, and doesn’t need to be personalized. He doesn’t claim that everyone necessarily feels the same way. Just that there is a huge feeling of despair in the camp.

I wouldn’t think that you are attached to ἐκ meaning “utterly” in ἐκπολιορκεῖν? I don’t think it carries that meaning in this verb. More like “starve out” or “siege out” the defenders, indicating removal or exhaustion, not extent of defeat.

I thought οὓς ᾤοντο was a bit danglingly as well, but in addition to connection, don’t really like how it introduces the new object to the mental picture without preparation. You can’t know what οὕς would stand for until well into the sentence, especially in a sentence with an infinitive and an implicit subject. Thucydides’ editor should have got him up on the phone about that one.

9

Some of the Athenians were encamped at Pylos; others were on the ships. κατὰ μερός means “by turns”. Those on the ships took turns, some gathering provisions on land, while the rest stayed on the ships at sea. τε . . . καὶ here – a little like μεν . . . δε – contrasts the forces encamped on land with those on the ships. I used a semicolon to bring out the contrast.

The other τε could be filled in with “and,” but it’s not necessary; τε is just used to continue the narrative along.

See LSJ for ἐκπολιορκεῖν – something like “bring a siege to a successful completion/surrender” (which is what eventually happened when Cleon took over, much to Thucydides’ surprise.) Not necessarily to force the besieged out.

Not sure I understand your point about ἀθυμίαν πλείστην, or your problem with “the passage of more and more time” – “more and more” is my attempt to capture the force of επι-.

οὓς etc. – I think it’s clear from context what Th. means. It’s not un-Thucydidean, in my experience. It’s possible something dropped out, but editors don’t seem to think it necessary to signal a lacuna here.

10

I don’t think that you understood much of what I was saying, and it’s no doubt my inability to express myself clearly that is at fault as usual, so I won’t try to belabor things. But ἐκ means “out” in the verb, not “utterly” as it can in some. It’s “starve/siege out” = “siege until surrender” not really “siege to the fullest extent” = “siege until surrender.”