"things" and other things

[Asterisk1234]

M.p.478
“thing” can be rendered by “χρημα” or by a neuter adjective or demonstrative without noun.
Unit 22 II.2, p 188 “πωσ υμιν τα αληθη λεχω,…” is rendered in the Key by “How shall I tell you the true details…”
Where does “details” come from? I would have translated with “the true things” - not very elegant for sure. I have seen similar translations of “thing(s)” elsewhere in M, but I can’t find them again. So it seems that “thing” can mean whatever the translator wants. But what about the native Greek - how does he get “details” out of “τα αληθη”?

Thanks to all.

[seneca2008]

The sentence continues “ἐπεὶ δεινά ἐστιν ἅ με δεῖ ἀγγεῖλαι;“. Since the things which you have to report to me are terrible.

So the sense of the whole sentence taking account of both parts must be “how can I (bear) to tell the whole truth (ie all the gory details) since what I have to report is so awful. “ translating as “the true things“ shifts the meaning onto the truth of the account when clearly the last part of the sentence implies that the question is about the details of a dreadful event not the veracity of the account. Translating word for word rather than trying to work out the sense is causing you difficulty.

Edited to change you to I.

Incidentally It’s λέξω not λεχω.

χρῆμα, -ατος, n. thing, matter; (pl.) property, money is often used as a concrete thing although it can be used “ generally, thing, matter, affair, esp. in Ep. and Ion” LSJ.

I hope this makes sense it’s late and I am tired.

[RandyGibbons]

So it seems that “thing” can mean whatever the translator wants.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don’t do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as ‘things’, ‘beings’, etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it’s a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.

[Barry_Hofstetter]

So it seems that “thing” can mean whatever the translator wants.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don’t do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as ‘things’, ‘beings’, etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it’s a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.

In other words, it’s not “whatever the translator wants” but that the translator is endeavoring to clarify from context to what the neuter plural substantive is referring. It has less to do with the Greek and more to do with the translator’s sense of the English, which may vary widely. χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering “thing.”

[seneca2008]

χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering “thing.”

That is what I was trying in a compressed way last night. It is best avoided by a beginner outside it’s pl use of money and property.

The OP hasn’t grasped that translating into English does not involve a one to one mapping of a Greek word onto an English word and that the results of one translation are not reversible in all other circumstances. This why I have always counselled him to decide what he thinks a sentence means before translating. The rush to translate causes this sort of difficulty.

[Asterisk1234]

The sentence continues “ἐπεὶ δεινά ἐστιν ἅ με δεῖ ἀγγεῖλαι;“. Since the things which you have to report to me are terrible.

So the sense of the whole sentence taking account of both parts must be “how can you (bear) to tell me the whole truth (ie all the gory details) since what you have to report is so awful. “ translating as “the true things“ shifts the meaning onto the truth of the account when clearly the last part of the sentence implies that the question is about the details of a dreadful event not the veracity of the account. Translating word for word rather than trying to work out the sense is causing you difficulty.

Incidentally It’s λέξω not λεχω.

χρῆμα, -ατος, n. thing, matter; (pl.) property, money is often used as a concrete thing although it can be used “ generally, thing, matter, affair, esp. in Ep. and Ion” LSJ.

I hope this makes sense it’s late and I am tired.

Thank you so much, and I hope you had a good night’s sleep.

re: χ -ξ - I stand corrected -

It was not my translation, but M’s. The translation in Ms KEY (p.36) is " How shall I tell you the true details, when what I must report is terrible."
In fact, I had no great difficulty translating, after I (slowly) realized that “με δει αγγειλαι” means “I must report”, “με” being the accusative subject of the infinitive (I think…). My problem was with the word “details” instead of “things”.
From your and other respondents’ reply, I now have a better understanding the relationship between χρεμα and thing. I just wish M would have explained all that.

[seneca2008]

@Asterisk1234

after I (slowly) realized that “με δει αγγειλαι” means “I must report”, “με”

Yes that’s correct and I was half asleep. I am glad you weren’t misled.

Don’t worry over much about this. I think Mastronade wrote his book for the classroom rather than self study so a teacher would explain all this. In the absence of a teacher you have to ask here. It would be an impossible task to anticipate every question someone might have.

Confusion on χρῆμα is common - at least when I started I used to wonder about it. Getting things wrong is fine and as you see you are not the only one.

[Asterisk1234]

So it seems that “thing” can mean whatever the translator wants.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don’t do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as ‘things’, ‘beings’, etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it’s a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.

Thanks - that really helped.

[Asterisk1234]

So it seems that “thing” can mean whatever the translator wants.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. But in any case, a notable feature of classical Greek is the liberal use of substantivizing neuter plural phrases like τὰ ἀληθῆ. We don’t do this in English, and the translator must come up with her best translation based on the context and on the overall style she is trying to convey in her translation (literal, literary, etc.). As another example, in Aristotle τὰ ὄντα is variously translated as ‘things’, ‘beings’, etc. - no translation here will satisfy every reader, and it’s a perfect example of why we want to read in the original Greek.

In other words, it’s not “whatever the translator wants” but that the translator is endeavoring to clarify from context to what the neuter plural substantive is referring. It has less to do with the Greek and more to do with the translator’s sense of the English, which may vary widely. χρῆμα is only used very rarely in a context which would justify the rendering “thing.”

Thanks - that helped too.

[Asterisk1234]

@Asterisk1234

after I (slowly) realized that “με δει αγγειλαι” means “I must report”, “με”

In the absence of a teacher…

You are my teacher - along with all other respondents.

I’m 81 and very slow at learning, I’ve been on M for 2.5 years and I’m only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody’s help.

Many thanks to all.

[seneca2008]

@Asterisk1234

I’m 81 and very slow at learning, I’ve been on M for 2.5 years and I’m only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody’s help.

I hope others are inspired to take up Greek by your example. Its best to go slowly and carefully revising what you have learned. Keep up the good work and well done. Mastronarde has written an excellent book but it is by no means easy. I hope you are keeping safe in these difficult times.

[Barry_Hofstetter]

@Asterisk1234

I’m 81 and very slow at learning, I’ve been on M for 2.5 years and I’m only on Unit 22. Nevertheless, I enjoy the exercises and the process of studying as long as I detect some progress. I would have given up long ago without everybody’s help.

I hope others are inspired to take up Greek by your example. Its best to go slowly and carefully revising what you have learned. Keep up the good work and well done. Mastronarde has written an excellent book but it is by no means easy. I hope you are keeping safe in these difficult times.

I’m inspired. I started Sahidic Coptic sometime ago, but put it aside for other concerns. Now to start again! Anyone want to join me?

[seanjonesbw]

I’m inspired. I started Sahidic Coptic sometime ago, but put it aside for other concerns. Now to start again! Anyone want to join me?

Are you on the GlyphStudy mailing list, Barry? There’s been a group working through Lambdin’s Introduction to Sahidic Coptic since 2017 and I think they’re nearly on the last chapter, so there might be another group starting up soon if you’re interested.

[seanjonesbw]

That new Coptic section at GlyphStudy has just been confirmed by the way. I’ve posted the email I got from the mod, Karen (who is absolutely lovely), below in case anyone fancies it. All GlyphStudy sections work by submitting work every week or couple of weeks that a mod then collates into a pdf. There’s no teacher but the community on the list is always keen to answer a question. And it’s free, in case that’s not clear from the email.
SAHIDIC COPTIC 2020 SECTION STARTING May 4, 2020

No previous language experience is required for this section and beginners are welcome to join us. If, however, you
have previously studied Middle Egyptian, you will find much that is familiar in Coptic!

Coptic was the final form of the Ancient Egyptian language, and a direct descendent of the language spoken by the Pharaohs.

The Egyptian language started being written using the Coptic alphabet (a modified form of the Greek alphabet) in the 1st century AD, and it existed as a spoken language until about the 17th century.

Today it is still used as a liturgical language by the Coptic Church, and has a rich heritage of literature which this study section will equip us to read.

In addition to the Coptic translation of the Bible there is a wealth of other literature, amongst which are philosophical and religious works, biographies, letters and other mementoes of people’s everyday lives, and works of fiction featuring tales of travel and adventure!

We will be studying “Sahidic” Coptic: the Upper Egyptian “literary” dialect of Coptic, in which the classic Coptic literature is written, as well as the Gospel of Thomas and the rest of the Nag Hammadi library.

We will be using Introduction to Sahidic Coptic by Thomas O. Lambdin, as our textbook and you will need to purchase a copy in order to participate.

It can be purchased from Amazon and costs about $38 in the US, and £42 in the UK. We will take about two years to complete the course.

SIGN ME UP!

REQUIREMENTS:
Send an email to Karen at kmotc@swbell.net

with both your first and last name, and indicate that you want the Coptic20 section. We are announcing multiple sections at the moment and I need the section detail.

Hope to have you studying Coptic with us soon!
Best,

your mod,

Karen

[Barry_Hofstetter]

That new Coptic section at GlyphStudy has just been confirmed by the way. I’ve posted the email I got from the mod, Karen (who is absolutely lovely), below in case anyone fancies it. All GlyphStudy sections work by submitting work every week or couple of weeks that a mod then collates into a pdf. There’s no teacher but the community on the list is always keen to answer a question. And it’s free, in case that’s not clear from the email.

Well, since I now have no excuse, I don’t know whether to thank you or complain…

Seriously, though, this is just the kind of thing I’ve been looking for, so πολλήν σοι χάριν ἔχω.

[seanjonesbw]

You’re welcome/I’m so sorry! I’m following one of the gentle paced Middle Egyptian sections at the moment so you may see me pop up on the list asking stupid questions. Good luck!

[Barry_Hofstetter]

You’re welcome/I’m so sorry! I’m following one of the gentle paced Middle Egyptian sections at the moment so you may see me pop up on the list asking stupid questions. Good luck!

So, all signed up, and this is the first week of formal study. Now I can say things like:

ⲡⲣⲱⲙⲉ ϩⲓ ⲧⲉϩⲏⲓ, “The man is on the road.”

Thanks again putting me on to this group!

[seanjonesbw]

Glad you’re enjoying it! The GlyphStudy gang are a really nice bunch.

In exchange for your beginner’s Coptic translation of the title of Jack Kerouac’s seminal beat novel, I return the favour in beginner’s Middle Egyptian:

iw s ḥr wꜣt