The cinematographic Latin sentence

Latin Learning Latin
1

Can anyone can help me? In Paragraph 601 of the Allen & Greenough New Latin Grammar, the authors use a passage from Livys Ab urbe condita to demonstrate long-sentence verb-at-the-end structure. Its about what happened to the Volscians when they tangled with the Romans.

Someone wrote that Latin sentences have a cinematographic logic, presenting a chain of events as a series of pictures. I think that is true of this sentence, but I wish I understood the storyboarding details a little better. Heres the text (little hats on the long vowels instead of the original macrons) followed by a translation I found on the Web.

Volsc exiguam spem in arms, ali undique abscis, cum temptssent, praeter ctera adversa, loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam congress, inquire ad fugam, cum ab omn parte caederentur, ad precs certmine vers, ddit impertre trditsque arms, sub iugum miss, cum singuls vestments, gnminiae cldisque pln dmittuntur;

The only hope of the Volscians lay in their arms, and slight as it was they risked it. The ground was unfavourable to them for fighting, still more so for flight. As they were being cut down in all directions, they begged for quarter, but they were only allowed to get away after their general had been surrendered, their arms given up, and they themselves sent under the yoke. Covered with disgrace and disaster, they departed with only one garment apiece.

The problem starts when I try to break it down into smaller chunks:

VOLSC (the Volscians = main subject)

exiguam spem in arms, (scant hope in their weapons)
ali undique abscis, (with other (hope?) everywhere cut off) ??? [Help! ali?]
CUM TEMPTSSENT, (when they had tried) [Does this CUM clause belong to the words preceding or following it, or both? Tried/tested what?]

praeter ctera adversa, (besides other disadvantages) ??? [Which is noun, which adj?]
loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam congress, (also, having gathered in a place unfavourable for fighting) [quoque = on top of everything else?]
inquire ad fugam, (more unfavourable for flight)

CUM ab omn parte CAEDERENTUR, (when they were being slaughtered on all sides) [Again, does this CUM clause belong to the words preceding or following it?]

ad precs certmine vers, (having turned from struggle to prayers)

ddit impertre (with their general having been surrendered)
trditsque arms, (with their arms having been handed over)
sub iugum miss, (having been sent under the yoke)
cum singuls vestments, (with single garments)

gnminiae cldisque pln (filled with disgrace and disaster)

DMITTUNTUR; (Main Verb = they are scattered/sent on their way)

Its frustrating not to understand that final 10%. Can anyone get their head around the details that are still fuzzy to me?

Thanks,
Int

2

You may compare with my interpretation, I think I understood it well. I kept it pretty literal so it may sound a little strained but it should make it easier to compare with the Latin version and your version.

Volsc exiguam spem in arms, ali undique abscis, cum temptssent, praeter ctera adversa, loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam congress, inquire ad fugam, cum ab omn parte caederentur, ad precs certmine vers, ddit impertre trditsque arms, sub iugum miss, cum singuls vestments, gnminiae cldisque pln dmittuntur;

The Volscians, with every which way cut off (by the enemy), when they had tried a scant hope in their arms, in addition to the rest of their disadvantages, with their position also uneven joined battle, with a yet more uneven (position) (went) to flight, when they were cut down from every side; turned from the struggle to beseechment, with their general surrendered and arms handed over, cast under the yoke, with one article of clothing apiece, they are sent away full of disgrace and defeat.



The problem starts when I try to break it down into smaller chunks:

VOLSC (the Volscians = main subject)

exiguam spem in arms, (scant hope in their weapons)
ali undique abscis, (with other (hope?) everywhere cut off) ??? [Help! ali?]
alia “in another way” is an ‘Adverb of Place’, see A&G 217; although here it seems to be treated as an ablative since there is an agreeing participle, making it an ablative absolute. A most literal translation of this would be “with every way cut off from every side”

CUM TEMPTSSENT, (when they had tried) [Does this CUM clause belong to the words preceding or following it, or both? Tried/tested what?]
I think it was a mistake to break the parts up like that, since exiguam spem is the most likely the direct object of temptassent. Since this is so, there shouldn’t be any problem concerning where this cum goes.

praeter ctera adversa, (besides other disadvantages) ??? [Which is noun, which adj?]
It really doesn’t matter which is noun or adjective so long as one of them is being used substantively. Most people would agree that adversa is the substantive in this case and is often used by itself in other contexts.

loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam congress, (also, having gathered in a place unfavourable for fighting) [quoque = on top of everything else?]
inquire ad fugam, (more unfavourable for flight)
loco quoque iniquo is an ablative absolute. “in” is usually expressed by a preposition, though the temptation to translate the ablative that way is correct sometimes.
congredi ad pugnam means “to join battle”.

CUM ab omn parte CAEDERENTUR, (when they were being slaughtered on all sides) [Again, does this CUM clause belong to the words preceding or following it?]
It could go with either, but someone else more knowledgeable about Caesar’s writing may be able to clarify. It probably makes more sense put this temporal clause in relation the preceding clause, but I put it with the proceeding one for a mysterious reason. Besides this, there does seem to be one too many cum’s, yes?

ad precs certmine vers, (having turned from struggle to prayers)
yes, but don’t think they are throwing down their swords and praying to the gods; they are praying to the Romans to spare their lives.

ddit impertre (with their general having been surrendered)
trditsque arms, (with their arms having been handed over)
sub iugum miss, (having been sent under the yoke)
cum singuls vestments, (with single garments)
all correct here

gnminiae cldisque pln (filled with disgrace and disaster)
ignominia had a very powerful meaning to the Romans - a lingering disgrace which follows one for a very long time or the rest of his life, literally giving him a “polluted name”. cladis might be translated more smoothly as “defeat”, which is another valid meaning,

DMITTUNTUR; (Main Verb = they are scattered/sent on their way)
being that they are put under a yoke, more likely they are being taken back to Rome as slaves

3

Thanks Benissimus, that was brill! I cannot say how impressed I am by your skills - and your generosity with your time. You’ve really given me something to think about. I need a little time to digest everything so I’ll get back to you later with comments. :smiley:

Cheers,
Int

4



CUM ab omnî parte CAEDERENTUR, (when they were being slaughtered on all sides) [Again, does this CUM clause belong to the words preceding or following it?]
It could go with either, but someone else more knowledgeable about Caesar’s writing may be able to clarify. It probably makes more sense put this temporal clause in relation the preceding clause, but I put it with the proceeding one for a mysterious reason. Besides this, there does seem to be one too many > cum> 's, yes?

Now that is is later in the day and my brain cells are working more efficiently, I think I can say it in a way which utilizes this cum and the participles more efficiently. The second cum could be translated as “since”, some of the participles could be assumed to have an implied form of sum making them verbal. These are minor details and only pose a problem when translating, not so much in reading - unless you read by translating, which I do not recommend at all.

I’ll also take the opportunity to smooth out the wording in English while working in these improvements:

Surrounded from every side, when the Volscians tested that minute hope in their weapons, [in addition to other disadvantages, their location also being unsuitable,] they engaged in battle; then from a yet more disadvantageous position flight; since they were being cut down from every side, they turned from the battle to prayer; with their general surrendered and their arms handed over, they were cast under the yoke, wearing one article of clothing apiece (Volscian skivvies perhaps?), and are sent away filled with shame and defeat (a case of the Latin narrative present).

5

Heres my latest (still close-to-the-text) version:
(Do I see a pattern in the Latin? Subject CUM clause / PAST PARTICIPLE clause CUM clause / PAST PARTICIPLE clause Main Verb)

Volsc
exiguam spem in arms / ali undique abscis / CUM TEMPTSSENT, praeter ctera adversa / loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam CONGRESS, inquire ad fugam

(The Volscians, when they had tried out lacking all other options the slim hope of an armed attack, (and) confounding an already difficult situation - having chosen to fight in a place unsuitable for fighting and even less suitable for flight)

CUM ab omn parte CAEDERENTUR ad precs certmine VERS,
(since they were being cut down on all sides, having switched from fighting to pleading for their safety)

ddit impertre trditsque arms, sub iugum miss, cum singuls vestments, gnminiae cldisque pln DMITTUNTUR;
(with their general having been surrendered, with their arms having been handed over, having been sent under the yoke, in their underwear, filled with ignominy and defeat, they were sent packing)

The only point where I find it hard to follow your advice is this:

loc quoque iniqu ad pgnam and (loc) inquire ad fugam seem like a pair, so CONGRESS therefore feels better as plain having fought/gathered etc. (Ill certainly be on the lookout for instances of congredi ad pugnam in my future reading).

By the way, the initial situation is that the Volscians have threatened some allies of the Romans. The Romans turn up, the Vs say well go quietly, the Rs say oh no you dont, that would be too easy. So they get their deserts.

The sentence following the one we’ve been looking at (by Livy, by the way, not Caesar) tells us that the surviving Volscians camp down near a town (Tusculum) whose inhabitants already have a grudge against them and kill the defenceless Volscians so that theres scarcely a soul to tell the tale of the butchery.

et cum haud procul urbe Tusculo consedissent, vetere Tusculanorum odio inermes (unarmed/defenceless) oppressi dederunt poenas, vix nuntiis caedis relictis.

By the way, I only use translation as a means to get at the Latin. I often find that understanding the content helps me understand the form. My ultimate aim is to internalize the Latin form system.

Thanks again,
Int

6

Yes, I was not clear in expressing that congressi applies to both ad pugnam and ad fugam; it could be considered zeugma.

The sentence following the one we’ve been looking at (by Livy, by the way, not Caesar) tells us that the surviving Volscians camp down near a town (Tusculum) whose inhabitants already have a grudge against them and kill the defenceless Volscians so that theres scarcely a soul to tell the tale of the butchery.

Interesting, I wonder why they would put them under yolk if only to set them free? Perhaps some of them simply managed to run away during the battle (iniquiore ad fugam) prior to being to chopped down on every side? :question:

I cannot say how impressed I am by your skills - and your generosity with your time.

Thank you. I am still working on the ego…

7

Zeugma? Oh, you mean like ‘He took my advice and my wallet’? Yes, I see what you mean.

As regards the Romans letting the Volscians go, I guess they were considered small fry unworthy of being taken back to Rome for a parade. It was enough to humiliate the survivors and kick them out of camp shivering, shocked and awed. :open_mouth:

As for fielding praise, there’s nothing wrong with having a healthy ego. A robust one will probably help you maintain a sense of proportion better than a weak one. So thanks again. :sunglasses:

Cheers,
Int