Sophocles Ajax 1132

I don’t think we should mock modern linguistic work. It’s usually intelligible on its own terms and can even be helpful, however easy it can be to lose patience with. But most of the time the traditional grammatical terminology, universally accepted as indispensable for descriptive and analytic purposes, is perfectly adequate, and the very opposite of “opaque.” Its framework is no antiquarian relic but something built into the ancient greek language itself. The original poster asked why a particular word was in the “accusative,” and in response I referred to the “object” of a particular verb. It would be idiotic to attack such familiar and well-understood metalanguage.

I second Victor’s first post. It reprises a fundamental and unanswerable point.

You’re right, of course. New approaches have brought valuable new insights, and I wouldn’t want to denigrate the whole of modern linguistics on the grounds that some of it tends to be obscure. My own unfamiliarity with the terminology is always partly to blame for that, though sometimes, as in the examples I chose (a good search engine should reveal their source), I can’t help feeling that the writer does a surprisingly poor job of expressing things with clarity, especially considering that language and meaning are the writer’s province of inquiry in the first place.

@mwh – Composition practice seems helpful for comprehension, despite being inauthentically checked by non-native speakers. In fact, it seems to be extremely helpful.

Similarly, simplified Greek to avoid mental context-switching may have advantages at various times, especially when a learner is still trying to learn the bulk of the parts of the Greek language which no one disputes.

@Victor – Regarding your example, any writer willing to use the word “contrariwise” is a writer unconcerned with making himself understood. No calumny is too great. Contrariwise was a fine word a hundred years ago, but it has since been replaced in modern usage:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=contrariwise%2Calternatively&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccontrariwise%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Calternatively%3B%2Cc0

Writers who are not concerned with communicating to you are often concerned with having a different effect on you.

“Calumny”? What that?

Irony! (But actually contamination from reading too many Anthony Trollope novels over the last few weeks. I could have sworn that was a more common idiom.)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with ‘contrariwise’ - or ‘calumny’ for that matter! I suppose if one were writing very basic English (e.g. for those relatively new to the language), one might opt for alternatives; I doubt, however, whether anyone capable of fathoming the rest of the material quoted by Victor would be stopped in their tracks by ‘contrariwise’.

John

I wish our discussion had picked up the context-switching part of my post, rather than the calumny.

The language isn’t that hard, if you care to translate to English, it’s just that the author has made the choice to use $5 words where nickel words would do.

Here is a another piece of writing, explaining precisely the same thing as the first paragraph quoted: http://esl.fis.edu/grammar/rules/modal.htm

Easy, huh? Now which author is an important academic, and which author is an uncredited producer of website copy? The incomprehensibility of the first version is a feature, not a bug. It makes the unimportant sound important and justifies the author’s position to herself and to her readers. It communicates to those already in the know, and leaves everyone else in the dark. This is a sort of sclerosis of our academic system, as it has grown richer and more universal. There are vast incentives towards labyrinthine prose and few towards plain language.

For my part, I have found that if someone really has something say, he or she will usually strive to say it in a comprehensible way. Contrariwise, I have come to the conclusion that if I have trouble understanding a text in a field that I’m at least approximately familiar with, there’s a likelihood that it’s not worth reading. I find that the incomprehensibility of a text tends to be directly proportional with its vacuity. (I don’t know if this applies to quantum physics, but then again I don’t pretend to be familiar with that.)

@jeidsath

I wish our discussion had picked up the context-switching part of my post, rather than the calumny.

Yes it can be irksome (if I may use another fading word—we must keep these words alive!) when respondents only pick up on incidentals (or worse, as in a response to a post by daivid above, cut the quoted excerpt short in order to change its meaning altogether), but you did rather invite it. :slight_smile:

So, to oblige:

@mwh – Composition practice seems helpful for comprehension, despite being inauthentically checked by non-native speakers. In fact, it seems to be extremely helpful.

No argument there, in fact I’d say it’s helpful for building familiarity with how the language works. But I think it’s important that efforts at writing Greek should be gone over by people with better acquaintance with the language on hand to correct mistakes and offer suggestions for improvement, otherwise there’s a big risk of perpetuating faults and bad habits. Your admirable Sidgwick thread goes some way to dealing with this by offering Sidgwick’s own versions, but even that is not always enough.

Similarly, simplified Greek to avoid mental context-switching may have advantages at various times, especially when a learner is still trying to learn the bulk of the parts of the Greek language which no one disputes.

Perhaps. I like exercises that ring small changes in vocabulary or syntax, such as Markos has occasionally offered, and that is possible without translation. But “simplified Greek” can mean all sorts of things, and I see little value in dumbed-down paraphrases that show no respect for what the original actually says; nor in producing our own Greek scholia, at least not until Greek and scholiastic language is properly mastered (so I except chad), and probably not even then; and certainly not in discussing difficult Thucydidean passages in our own paltry Greek, a perfectly absurd suggestion. I’d rather read good Greek than write bad, and real Greek rather than fake. Most—not all—of the homemade Greek (as distinct from Eng.-Gk. Greek) I’ve seen on these boards is puerile and teems with elementary grammatical howlers (ὅταν ἔβρεξεν for instance, which turned up just today). No disgrace in that, unless accompanied by patronizing judgments and impudent advice on how best to attain fluency.

Here is a another piece of writing, explaining precisely the same thing as the first paragraph quoted: ‪> http://esl.fis.edu/grammar/rules/modal.htm

Easy, huh? Now which author is an important academic, and which author is an uncredited producer of website copy? The incomprehensibility of the first version is a feature, not a bug. It makes the unimportant sound important and justifies the author’s position to herself and to her readers. It communicates to those already in the know, and leaves everyone else in the dark. This is a sort of sclerosis of our academic system, as it has grown richer and more universal. There are vast incentives towards labyrinthine prose and few towards plain language.

Not having read more than the quoted extract I can’t be sure, but I supposed that by “modalizing particles” she meant particles such as γε, not what the website author calls “modal verbs” (by which is meant modalized verbs). What she says certainly seems applicable to the γε in our Sophocles passage. But anyway, your general complaint about academic writing is a common one which I think is to some extent justified (when I encounter “imbricated”—all too often—I stop reading), and I have to agree with your final sentence, but this particular excerpt doesn’t seem all that objectionable to me. We’ve been leading very closeted lives if we don’t all know what speech acts and illocutionary utterances are by now.

χαίρετε, πάντες,

Actually, looking at Doukas’ Thucydides a little closer, I note that this particular paraphrase appears to have elements of Demotic which his later paraphrases of Ajax and OT lack. It appears that the diction of Doukas’ paraphrases changed over time into a more pure Attic, so probably the later ones would be more useful. I’ve been focusing on his Sophocles and have not had time yet to look more closely at his others.

Does anyone know of print or on line copy of the Ajax Scholia with a more modern font?

It’s funny you mention that one.

Sometimes on the weather thread, when I am unsure of usage, I will go ahead and post something that I know to be questionable–not outright wrong or un-grammatical–but something I’m not quite sure of. I find that I almost have to try it out, and then inevitably I check it myself against actual usage when reading real Greek. In this case, I vaguely remember something about how in Koine, or at least in Biblical Greek. ὅταν sometimes stands in for ὅτε. When I posted that yesterday I did not feel like looking it up, I just sort of wanted to try it out, see how it felt, and figured I would check it later.

It turns out that BDAG does say of ὅταν 2.d. "w. aor. ind., in place of ὅτε , ‘when,’ (Ex 16:3; Ps 118:32) Rv 8:1 (v.l. ὅτε.) I believe that in Modern Greek ὅταν has replaced ὅτε in all moods and tenses.

Now, I’m not interested in defending what I wrote. In this case, despite occasional conflation (all three of the references above could themselves simply be grammatical errors–the Greeks made mistakes too :smiley: ) there is a formal difference between ὅτε and ὅταν and I see no reason to conflate them. If fact, I went ahead and edited my post. (On top of anything, I got the accent wrong!) I just mention it to show how I sometimes write Greek, particularly when in a more experimental mode.

ἔρρωσθε

I wish that were true! Greek word order by Kenneth Dover covers a very important topic both in itself and because people use it as a starting point. It makes a virtue out of conciseness to the point it is completely impenetrable to me and it seems I am not alone in this. My impression is that Dover simply did not care whether any one beyond a small elite could understand it. Just so long as it was correct.

On the other hand a few words like Contrariwise don’t bother me so long as I feel the author is making an effort to be understood by a wider circle.

ΜΙΧΑΗΛ ΑΡΧΑΓΓΕΛΟΣ ΜΑΡΚΩI ΤΩΙ ΦΙΛΤΑΤΩΙ ΧΑΙΡΕΙΝ

Does anyone know of print or on line copy of the Ajax Scholia with a more modern font?

There’s the 1888 edition by P. N. Papageorgiou, on all the fully surviving plays—hard to find. More recent ed. for Ajax old scholia by G.A. Christodoulou, 1977; the TLG adopts his text, if you have access to that. But Brunck’s 18th-cent. ed. so handily linked by Joel is probably all you need for your purposes. The font is good and tolerably clear, and takes very little time to get used to. I find it very attractive, and actually easier to read than modern letter-by-letter fonts. Interesting how type-set texts simulated handwritten ones; I suppose it conferred a little more respectability on print.

The main text gives the more substantial and significant old scholia, deriving from ancient commentaries (take a look at the comment on 1142, for instance, expressing a very interesting criticism of the structure of the play), but the lower register gives the more banal and jejune later scholia, which might be more to your liking.

It’s funny you mention that one.

I should and do apologize for picking on your Greek (though I did have the grace to efface the wrong accent, just as you have the grace to acknowledge it), and for being so shirty overall in my intemperate post. Put it down to my feeling responsible for the derailing of a perfectly innocuous Sophocles thread, which could actually have been interesting, by giving you an opening to push a point of view you never tire of pushing. I said what I think in a thread on the topic a year and a half ago, and really do not want to be caught in an unending cycle of repetition. :slight_smile: