Sidgwick's Greek Prose Comp

Greek Learning Greek
1

I am currently studying Sidgwick’s lessons on converting Enlish sentences into Greek idiom, but I do not agree with how extensively he converts abstract concepts into concrete ideas. For example, he translates Silence reigned through the rooms, which is a vivid personification for me, into "?ν ἡσυχίᾳ ἦν πάντα τὰ οἰκήματα.“ and “He raised the standard of revolt,” another vivid abstraction, into "φανε?ῶς ἀπέστη.“ I do see his point as appertains to abstractions and metaphors that have become so overused as to become trite and flavorless, but is it really “bad” style to intermingle abstractions with concrete sentences? isn’t more of a personal choice? Just wondering what the general opinion is.

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this is quite an interesting question, and the contrast between Ancient Greek and English in such respects can be very instructive.

my personal experience from reading Greek prose is that the extent to which what you call “trite metaphors” (and what Paul Riqueur would call “dead metaphors”) is much lesser in Ancient Greek than it is in English, and in modern literary languages as as whole.

I, too, am curious to learn what other people’s impressions are.

3

There are, of course, personifications in Greek literature (although I’ve read more poetry than prose), and I’ve always been fascinated with how contemporary readers would think about them. I’m not qualified to make a judgment, but I think that it is true that even literary Greek style depends less on abstractions than English does in quite ordinary expressions, and I think that if he is overemphasizing the idea, it is probably to impress a notable difference in the minds of beginning students, and to offer a general concept with which to aim for a classical style. I’d be interested to hear what other experienced readers have to say, but you might also consider looking at a book by GS Thompson, “Greek Prose Usage”, and the book by JD Denniston on Greek Prose Style, which are probably more advanced treatments. There are also lectures on prose comp available here by Sidgwick, although I’m assuming you’re looking at those as well.

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I general I think it’s best to follow the Old British Dudes unless you can cite something from your own prose reading as a model.

5

hi, different genres of grk draw on different types of metaphors, similes etc. so it’s helpful to find lists of categories and e.g.s in your area of composition and draw on those if possible.

for tragic iambics, there’s a good list in Rouse’s Demonstrations.

for prose comp, there’s e.g. a thesis by Hussey 1887 listing plato’s metaphors by category, giving statistics and showing how plato’s categories of metaphors differ from those used in poetry (drawn more from nature). i could put my summary of that thesis online if anyone wants it (after march, when i can get my classics stuff out of boxes), cheers, chad :slight_smile:

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I was talking in particular about using English metaphors in Greek Comp. Sidgwick says don’t use them at all unless they are an integral part of what one is trying to convey, but I just don’t see why it is so wrong to translate such metaphors as long as they have some flavor left and have not become trite such as the examples I mentioned.

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You ended up moving then? France is it?

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hi bert, yep moved to paris last year.

i’ve found some books here which are worth knowing about… here are the classics books i’ve bought so far (remove spaces):

freewebs . com / mhninaeide / Classicsbooks . jpg

Le verbe grec ancien by Duhoux, 2nd edition 2000 is my favourite, I’ve never read a better explanation of the morphology in particular. Duhoux ties it all back to indo-european as well.

À quoi sert la métrique ? by Steinrück 2007 is excellent, explaining the cola (in both strophic and non-strophic verse), giving mnemonics for the names of the main cola and giving worked e.g.s of breaking up a strophe into the cola used.

If anyone has questions on other books i’ll be happy to respond, cheers :slight_smile:

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Ooh. Tell us more. Do I have to find a copy of this eventually?

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hey will, i scanned some sections for you:

  • pp.25-27: when the grks might have shifted from thinking about poetry in terms of cola to thinking about it in terms of metra (the quote on pg.25 footnote 28 is interesting)

  • pp.33-38: patterns of contracted biceps in description scenes in the odyssey

  • pp.65-67: mnemonics for the names of the aeolic cola, and how to analyse the cola in sapphic verse

www . freewebs . com / mhninaeide / ExtractsSteinruck2007 . pdf
(remove spaces)

i recommend it even if you have West on grk metre, cheers :slight_smile: