Reading Thucydides 2014

I just finished reading the pdf in the apothneskw thread about how passives are really pretty middle. Check it out. It inspired this reading. OK, we have:

τῶν δὲ πρότερον ἔργων μέγιστον ἐπράχθη τὸ Μηδικόν.

τὸ Μηδικόν = The Persian War = TPW
prattw = to make
πρότερον = (adv.) earlier
n.b. Middle Liddle:adv. often between Art. and Subst., e. g. ὁ πρότερον βασιλεύς
μέγιστον = (adj.) greatest
τῶν ἔργων = of events

So, with an active verb, we would have:

The Greeks and the Persians made TPW greatest of the earlier events.

The DJs and the dancers made the party raunchiest of the earlier parties.

Now, let’s make it passive:

The party was made raunchiest of the earlier parties.

TPM was made greatest of the earlier events.

Note how PRATTW in the passive is almost like a copula. Perhaps this connects with its being able to take two accusatives in the active.

One of the morals of the pdf in the other thread is that each verb has its own quirks that you need to master, especially when it comes to the non-active forms.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of true passives. All ambiguity, in regard to voice, is removed by an explicit agent in an oblique case or a prepositional phrase:

Thucid. 1.23.2.1 οὔτε γὰρ πόλεις τοσαίδε ληφθεῖσαι ἠρημώθησαν, αἱ μὲν ὑπὸ βαρβάρων, αἱ δ’ ὑπὸ σφῶν αὐτῶν ἀντιπολεμούντων


C. Stirling Bartholomew

The beginning of 1.32 is utterly incomprehensible to me…

Δίκαιον, ὦ Ἀθηναῖοι, τοὺς μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας προυφειλομένης ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας ἐπικουρίας, ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν, δεησομένους ἀναδιδάξαι πρῶτον, μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται, εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι γε οὐκ ἐπιζήμια, ἔπειτα δὲ ὡς καὶ τὴν χάριν βέβαιον ἕξουσιν

  1. why is προυφειλομένης in the genetive?
  2. μάλιστα μὲν ὡς καὶ ξύμφορα δέονται: WHAT does this MEAN?
  1. I think it is in the genitive for the same reason that εὐεργεσίας is genitive: δεησομένους takes the genitive.

  2. I think it means that most of all they want [something] expedient (ie useful for those receiving the request). Marchant says that ξύμφορα is an internal accusative, but I don’t see how that can be the case since expedient seems to externalize the meaning quite a bit. But maybe I don’t understand Th. or internal accusatives or both.

I hope I got at least one of them right. :slight_smile:

Thanks.

  1. is clear now. I just couldn’t link προυφειλομένης with δεησομένους, too many interfering words… I somehow thought it wasn’t on the “same level” as the other genitives (whatever the correct grammatical term is, I thought it governed the other genitives or vice versa).

  2. is still hazy. I can accept that it means this, though :wink:. I was confusing σύμφορα with συμφορά, that was part of the problem. I must try to digest internal accusatives too…

It’s a tricky sentence. Hopefully some others will chirp in with their takes on it. I still don’t see how it is internal.

I’m still not convinced that they are linked. Indeed δεησομένους takes genitive but not these genitives;
the latter are part of the Subject of this acc.+inf. construction dependent on δικαιόν (ἐστι),
τοὺς ἥκοντας παρὰ τοὺς πέλας, those who have come to their neighbors, ἐπικουρίας δεησομένους,
asking for their aid, [ὥσπερ καὶ ἡμεῖς νῦν (δεόμεθα)], μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης μήτε ξυμμαχίας
προυφειλομένης,* [who are] without a great kindness or alliance meriting a long overdue payment,
it is fair that they first clearly show that…

  • These are simple genitives with a participle modifying them (lit. who possess neither x nor y that is z),
    all as part of the substantive participle serving as the subject in this construction.

Thanks Nate. I would bet that you are correct. What I couldn’t produce was the “[who are] without.” It seems a bit of a cheat to get “without” from μήτε. Really, what needs to be supplied is “who are without.” Do you have a Smyth number for that? I’m probably just dumb, but can you explain how you get that.

Probably you’re right. But I have the same problem as pster in producing “[who are] without”.

Should I interpret something like this?

μήτε εὐεργεσίας μεγάλης = “neither x”

μήτε ξυμμαχίας = “nor y”

προυφειλομένης = “[who possess] … that is z”

As a newcomer to this forum, I hope you won’t mind my commenting.

Surely what we have here is a simple genitive absolute construction, describing the circumstances in which the request is being made. ‘Proupheilomenes’ (apologies for not yet having sorted out how to type in Greek!) is passive, and means ‘already being owed’; in other words, the Corcyraeans are making their request for aid without any existing debt for previous alliance or great service already being owed (i.e to them by the Athenians); in other words, they are venturing to make their request even though no such debt is owed to them.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

John

Yes. I guess I was overly free in my translation:

  • [who are] of neither great kindness nor alliance [that is] meriting a long overdue payment.

Perhaps the internal meaning of these genitives “who have shown (in the past) neither x nor y
that would [now] merit a payment”. I’ve seen something of the sort in the older English translations.

Though I’m new to the forum, I hope you won’t mind my commenting.

As I understand it, προυφειλομένης is a passive participle in the genitive absolute construction, meaning ‘[with something] already being owed’. It is used to describe the circumstances of the Corcyraeans’ request to the Athenians: they are making their request with no debt for alliance or great service already being owed, i.e, even though no such debt is owed to them by the Athenians. This use of the genitive absolute is common in Thucydides.

I hope this helps; I’d be happy to discuss further.

Best wishes,

John

I’m really pleased to see that others have embarked on reading Thucydides - reading (and re-reading) him in Greek has been one of my greatest pleasures in recent years.

On the basis of my own experience, I would advise those tackling Thucydides to get hold of (in hard copy or, where available, online) as many different commentaries on his work as possible. Thucydides is a notoriously difficult writer, and even today there is no consensus on the exact meaning, or the precise grammatical construction, of many passages. This makes it all the more important to consider a wide range of scholarly opinions, and on that basis to decide which interpretation one favours.

Of ‘school’ editions of individual books, the old Macmillan series (variously edited by Marchant, Graves and Tucker) is, as far as I am aware, the only one to cover all eight books. Generally superior to these is the series published (on the basis of Classen’s edition) by Ginn and Co. of Boston in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, and edited by Morris, Smith and Fowler: unfortunately, this series covers only Books I, III, V, VI and VII. I see that at least one poster is already using Morris’ edition of Book I.

Other commentaries on individual books which I have found helpful are Cameron’s Thucydides Book I: A Students’ Grammatical Commentary ((University of Michigan Press, 2003); Rusten’s Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War, Book II (Cambridge University Press, 1989); Spratt’s Thucydides Book IV (Cambridge University Press, 1912); and Goodhart’s The Eighth Book of Thucydides’ History (Macmillan, 1893).

Of complete commentaries, the English commentary most helpful in considering difficult passages is that by Gomme, Andrewes and Dover (Oxford). The Bude edition by de Romilly, Bodin and Weil (Greek text, with translation and notes in French) is also very useful. Among older editions with commentaries my personal favourite is the shorter version of Poppo’s edition, revised by Stahl (normally referred to as ‘Poppo-Stahl’), with notes in Latin. The edition by Classen, revised by Steup (‘Classen-Steup’), with notes in German, is generally regarded as the best; Krueger’s edition (again with German notes) is also worth consulting.

Moving away from commentaries, Betant’s Lexicon Thucydideum (1843; repr. 1961) is a Greek-to-Latin dictionary of words found in Thucydides. While not complete (e.g. particles are omitted), it is very helpful if one wants to track down other instances of a word in Thucydides to help one decide how to translate it. Karl Maurer’s Interpolation in Thucydides (E. J. Brill, 1995) includes illuminating discussions of some very difficult passages.

The secondary literature on Thucydides is of course huge, but I’d like to put in a special mention for W. Robert Connor’s Thucydides (Princeton University Press, 1984), an enormously stimulating sequential ‘reading’ of Thucydides’ history, which can be read with great profit in parallel with the text of Thucydides.

I hope all this is helpful; I’d be happy to provide any further information.

Best wishes,

John

Welcome to the forum, John!

I think you finally found the correct name for the construction. And of course, we see genitive absolutes all the time… :slight_smile:

At 1.33.2, we get:

καὶ σκέψασθε: τίς εὐπραξία σπανιωτέρα ἢ τίς τοῖς πολεμίοις λυπηροτέρα, εἰ ἣν ὑμεῖς ἂν πρὸ πολλῶν χρημάτων καὶ χάριτος ἐτιμήσασθε δύναμιν ὑμῖν προσγενέσθαι, αὕτη πάρεστιν αὐτεπάγγελτος ἄνευ κινδύνων καὶ δαπάνης διδοῦσα ἑαυτήν, καὶ προσέτι φέρουσα ἐς μὲν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀρετήν, οἷς δὲ ἐπαμυνεῖτε χάριν, ὑμῖν δ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἰσχύν

What kind of ἂν is this? I don’t see a subjunctive around, and this seems to be doubly subordinate clause. So I’m confused.

Of course relatedly, what kind of εἰ is this?

Thanks in advance.

(For the record, I’m putting in 4hrs/day and I’m somwhere around here in the text! :smiley: )

After trying to figure out the Charles D. Morris’ notes on this sentence,
my head is banging and I’m at a loss.

I envy you, pster and co., for tackling such a tricky book, with all those difficult
constructions (who’d thunk it that a gen. abs. would come inside another participle in
a different case altogether–see John W.'s post above).

Yeah, the notes are more confusing than the text.

I wouldn’t say I’m tackling the book; perhaps more accurate to say it is tackling me. But I am patient and have warned Mr. Thucydides that I will prevail even if it takes me longer to read the book than it took them to fight the war!!

As for the John W. sentence, I gave up on that one. I have an eight hour time limit for any one sentence.

Glad to see you are chiming in from time to time Nate. I knew you wouldn’t be able to keep away. I suspect spiphany and Scribo will feel the pull soon. :wink:

Pster - sorry for the delay in commenting on that sentence. I did attempt to post a reply on it last Saturday, but it seems that, for some unknown reason, all my posts are being moderated, and that one never appeared, so I had to repost it during the week.

I can help with your query on I.33.2, and will do so today, if this post makes it onto the forum!

Best wishes,

John

I think it’s a past potential, H. W. Smyth’s Grammar §1784 ff. And if I’m wrong about that, that’s where you’ll find a discussion of ἂν with indicative more generally.

2353b of Smyth seems key. Notice how he picks up on ei almost meaning “since” just as Morris does in his commentary. But I have to say, that is the only section I have come across where I think Smyth totally drops the ball. The repeated rephrasing and all the parentheticals are symptoms of an explanation that is failing. Furthermore, the use of “it is true that” and “it is the case that” are really hopeless. First of all, they are not in the Greek. Second of all, there is a whole theory of truth in semantics according to which saying “it is true that P” just is saying “P” --the disquotational theory of truth–and it is quite well motivated, so I have no idea how Smyth thinks that bringing in these phrases clears up anything. Can anybody unravel it for me? :slight_smile: