I’m out since I’m joining an Aiskhylos group instead, sorry guys.
We’re still four:
Baker
Bob Manske
pster
jaihare
Starting on Sunday, right?
Enjoy your other group, Scribo! 
Sorry, I really wanted to do some prose but somehow there were powerpoint presentations and shiny e-mails and I got really confused and went along with it. :S
Plus consider it my giving tragedy a fourth chance, I hate tragedy…
I have already started. And I am finding it quite enjoyable but quite hard. Maybe we should go for .5 pages per day? Read a page and tell me how long it takes you.
Also, I am very worried about the textkit virus problem. If I should disappear, that will be the reason. I had a bad computer problem last week and still haven’t found the cause, so I am somewhat spooked.
Whatever happens though, I will be reading at least two hours per day of Th. until I am finished even if it takes a few years. 100%.
Have all those confirmed?
Hi,
I admit, the fact that I get a warning every time I enter this site is a bit disconcerting but I’m willing to carry on anyway. As far as the length per day, perhaps we should consider it more on a weekly basis, reporting each week how far we have made it. This would allow us to get a better idea of each person’s average progress and act accordingly in subsequent weeks. For me, the first page took about an hour and the second is proving to be more challenging. I’m willing to spend about 1.5 to 2 hours each day.
Cheers,
Eliot
Well, these are two entirely different issues.
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I am not sure if you read a full page. The first Oxford doesn’t begin at the top. If I could read one full Oxford page per hour, then I would probably just read five pages per day and end up doing it on my own. What I propose is that we shoot for one half a page per day. At least that is all I can reasonably do. That will probably take me four hours. Now I expect that as I get into it, it will come faster. And as I said, I am in it for the long haul, no matter what happens. No matter how slowly I go, I will be reading Th. every day. Even if I disappear from this site for a while. In a sense, it doesn’t matter if we go at varying speeds. If someone has a grammar question, we can all ponder it. Either we know the answer, or it will prepare us for what is to come. What I hope is that we can enrich the thread with secondary materials relating to grammar and syntax, but also relating to the history itself–in other words, all things Thucydides.
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As for this virus problem. This is the second in a year. And it is just a warning until your computer goes down and you incur a huge cost in terms of $ or time. At the moment, another serious computer problem would be unacceptable for me. In years past, I would have had an extra machine to use for something like this, but I don’t at the moment. So, like I say, if I disappear, keep reading. I will be!
But Eliot, I am really really glad you are on board. This community has great folks, but would need double to reach critical mass. I really look forward to reading what you have to say about Th., even if I have to go down to the internet cafe every couple of weeks to read it! Again, welcome and feel free to smash through 2 pages a day. It will be a thrill to watch you.
I agree varying speeds won’t matter. I like your emphasis on enriching the thread no matter the pace.
To all those who do participate, please post whatever thoughts you have as soon as possible after they arise. Perhaps jot them down while reading so you can remember them when signing on here. I firmly believe that Thucydides wrote as did Plato, expecting serious readers to probe the questions that the book addresses, allowing those questions to grow organically as you plow through the work.
Cheers,
Eliot
P.S. Thanks for addressing the suspicious site warning so that Jeff could fix it. It seems we will not have to worry about that any more.
Hey Eliot,
Yeah, I feel a little better now that the virus problem has subsided. I have several other projects that I am busy with, but I decided today that Thucydides will get priority over all of them! Haha. I thought about it and decided that there was probably nothing I wanted more out of Attic than to master this book. So I’m going to devote 4hrs per day to it for the next couple of years. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’ll be moving quickly. But I will be extremely thorough, for example, using it as a springboard for review of grammar and syntax. So I am going to pause over every little wrinkle. And I will happily entertain any question that anybody has about anything. Of course I’m not promising that I’ll have anything intelligent to say!
The Perseus pages are excellent because they have two commentaries and the Hobbes translation. I may spring for the Hornblower commentaries at some point, but for now, the Morris and the Marchant commentaries seem pretty adequate, the Marchant perhaps a bit more accessible. As for Hobbes, I think it is excellent. I am not sure why anybody would choose another. Hobbes was one of the greatest English prose writers and his translation is probably the most literal of those available, and so best for folks like us.
I am curious if you have any thoughts about secondary literature. This came out in late 2010: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Thucydidean-Themes-Simon-Hornblower/dp/0199562334/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1325470864&sr=8-19
It looks excellent. Unfortunately, the price, like the price for his commentaries is steep. Maybe we could look at some secondary literature when we are halfway through?
Also, I wanted to use a French website to get some good vocabulary lists, but I find I now am without access. Does anybody have an ideas about how to compile vocabulary lists? To start, a list of characteristically Thucydidean words would be nice.
I think you will not be disappointed with all your effort in this book. I agree that Hobbes is the best, having a hard copy myself. I do find the Hornblower book intriguing from reading what is available in the Amazon preview but won’t be able to spend time outside of Thucydides for now (though I like the idea of stepping back into outside sources once we are further in; maybe this summer?). One commentary I read which was intriguing and helpful is within a larger work called “History of Political Philosophy,” edited by Joseph Cropsley and Leo Strauss. The essay is entitled “Thucydides” and is by David Bolotin. The book is available in most libraries so you should be able to get a hold of it. I think there must be more than one edition however since I don’t think all of them have the Thucydides essay.
As for vocabulary, have you used the tool on Perseus. See here for help in using it to your advantage. For words essential to Thucydides, see especially the second bullet point under, “Things You Can Do With the Vocabulary Tool.” Also, if you haven’t used it already, I would recommend highly Marinone’s work called, “Tutti I Verbi Greci”. I have used that single book more than any other over the years.
Cheers,
Eliot
I complained about that thing in a thread once. For somethings–usually whatever I really want–it crashes. For others it produces nonsense. So I followed the instructions for A List of Key Words for a Text for Book I and I got exactly one result, the masculine singular definite article! But thanks for mentioning it because I did just get a list for Book I! 3150 words! 144 pages! Maybe I didn’t want a vocabular list after all?
Remember:
Post by mingshey » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:40 am
I had abandoned using Perseus Word List tool for the same reason for months. But I found a remedy for that. Just keep refreshing the page UNTIL the word list shows up. It could be just once, or dozens of times, but in the end it works. A little bit of nuissance, but getting a word list of a work is not what you need every minute.
I think I got rid of that Strauss book. I never read the Th. article. Didn’t like any of the others that I did read. May still have it in a box. Dunno. Is it that good? I have JSTOR and access to a great library. Let me know if you have any other recommendations.
I’m still interested in reading but…
Pardon my ignorance. I haven’t been part of textkit group before so, is there a special group I have to join, do I just send in a translation or comments or questions, and if so where do I post them? In other words, physically, how does this thing work? What’s expected of me?
Bob
I’m not translating. You’re not required to send in a translation. If you translate it, that’s for you. All we want, as far as I’m concerned, is to know that you’re reading along and for you to submit questions and comments about the text here on the forum.
That’s how I understand what we’re doing.
Regards,
Jason
I second that.
Eliot
Just ordered this: http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2004/2004-08-15.html
Marchant Book I seems to have a good introduction: http://www.archive.org/stream/thucydidesbook1e00thuc#page/n5/mode/2up
I would just add three things.
- It would be nice if the thread had some good Th. resources. For example, here is a good site: http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/grk202/_baks/greek_202_syllabusb.html.0001.a1e9.bak
Guy has some good vocabulary drills and other items.
If you do a google search for thucydides syllabus site:.edu, you get an idea of what people are teaching. I would like it if we could assemble a good bibliography of secondary literature–key items like Hornblower–and read some of the articles at some point.
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I have an endless supply of grammar questions. I haven’t posted any yet because I am feeling you guys out. But if you have any grammar questions, put them up! I’d rather work on your questions because you will be more interested in them and I have an endless supply anyway.
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The community here is very small unfortunately. But I will be working on this every day for the next year or two. I was originally thinking in terms of quantity, but now I’ve gone way over to quality. I don’t care when I finish, but I am interested in some level of mastery of Th. I would like to say that while there are no requirements besides reading and participating, it would be great if those of us so inclined could start to think about ways in which we could really enrich this thread.
I have an endless supply of grammar questions. I haven’t posted any yet because I am feeling you guys out. But if you have any grammar questions, put them up! I’d rather work on your questions because you will be more interested in them and I have an endless supply anyway.
I would be willing to work on a grammar question, I have Guy Cooper with an index to Thucydides.
I was originally thinking in terms of quantity, but now I’ve gone way over to quality. I don’t care when I finish, but I am interested in some level of mastery of Th.
Sounds like a good plan. That has always been my approach to Tragedy, go slow, live with it for a while till it starts to make sense.
Well, I’ve got a question about the beginning. :">
Θουκυδίδης Ἀθηναῖος ξυνέγραψε τὸν πόλεμον τῶν Πελοποννησίων καὶ Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἐπολέμησαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου καὶ > ἐλπίσας μέγαν τε ἔσεσθαι καὶ ἀξιολογώτατον τῶν προγεγενημένων> , τεκμαιρόμενος ὅτι ἀκμάζοντές τε ᾖσαν ἐς αὐτὸν ἀμφότεροι παρασκευῇ τῇ πάσῃ καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους, τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον.
I understand the underlined phrase to mean something like: having deemed [it] to be (fut. inf. of εἰμί) [the] great[est] and most noteworthy of the ones [wars] having happened before.
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Why is ἔσεσθαι in the future? Why not εἶναι?
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Does it matter that μέγαν isn’t superlative here (cp. μέγιστος)? Does it still carry the superlative sense?
Thanks!
Jason wrote:
Θουκυδίδης Ἀθηναῖος ξυνέγραψε τὸν πόλεμον τῶν Πελοποννησίων καὶ Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἐπολέμησαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου καὶ ἐλπίσας μέγαν τε ἔσεσθαι καὶ ἀξιολογώτατον τῶν προγεγενημένων, τεκμαιρόμενος ὅτι ἀκμάζοντές τε ᾖσαν ἐς αὐτὸν ἀμφότεροι παρασκευῇ τῇ πάσῃ καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους, τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον.
I understand the underlined phrase to mean something like: having deemed [it] to be (fut. inf. of εἰμί) [the] great[est] and most noteworthy of the ones [wars] having happened before.
Why is ἔσεσθαι in the future? Why not εἶναι?
Does it matter that μέγαν isn’t superlative here (cp. μέγιστος)? Does it still carry the superlative sense?
The perspective of ἔσεσθαι is that of the author who set out at the very beginning ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου to record what he believed/hoped would be (future) the mother of all wars.
You don’t need two superlatives, the following superlative ἀξιολογώτατον creates a sort of semantic acceleration of degree from μέγαν. I’m winging it here, but I don’t recall seeing a lot of paired superlatives joined by a conjunction.