Paul Derouda suggested the possibility of re-organizing the forums, so I thought I’d go ahead and start the topic for all to weigh in.
As many of you know, when Textkit was initially started by Jeff, the site’s main purpose was the digitization and distribution of public-domain texts related to learning Latin and ancient Greek. At the time (2002) there were precious few such texts out on the internet. The forums were designed mainly to assist people who were using these texts, especially the handful that were extremely popular by visitors. Over time, more sites (including Google, Internet Archive and many others) began making scanned texts available and there was no need for Textkit to continue that function. However, the forums grew and attracted lots of users who were interested in learning and discussing ancient Greek and/or Latin, even though they did not have any interest in or ties to the particular books that the forums were organized around.
The current situation is that we have a lot of sub-forums that get little or no traffic (The “First Greek Book - White” forum, for example, has only four topics with posts in the last 18 months) while others get lots of traffic that is not well organized (“Learning Greek” has had over 30 active topics just this month alone).
I have no specific proposal myself, but thought I would start the discussion rolling. Should we simply? Should we organize differently? Should we have more sub-forums, fewer, etc? Does it matter? If we do make changes, what should (and for that matter what could) happen to all the posts that are already here?
It has always been the community that has made Textkit so great, so I pose these questions to the community for discussion. Thanks everyone for all of you contributions.
Koine Greek And Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek could be renamed Koine Greek And Biblical Greek whic is the role it serves now.
Likewise Homeric Greek and Pharr’s Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners could be renamed as Homeric Greek. Learning Greek now serves as an Attic+Ionic Greek forum in which other forms of Greek are also discussed. The current tittle fits that role.
This leaves First Greek Book - White without an adequate role. It isn’t a good place even to place a question about White as the traffic is so low that the temptation is just to ignore it.
Sometimes a group of people working an a specific book produce a large number of posts and that the choice is between flooding the forum with lots of new threads or leaves those working on that book the task of navigating one monster thread. It would be useful to have a forum for those doing a joint study of a textbook so perhaps it could be renamed so as to fulfill that role?
I think the idea of renaming the forums is a good one, and keeping the total number of forums at four each, so that users aren’t presented with a huge array of forums to look into at each visit. My suggestions:
Reading Greek (other than Homeric and Biblical)
Homeric Greek
Beginning Greek (or maybe “Learning Greek”?; formerly White)
Biblical Greek
NB: Non-biblical Koine (Polybius, Plutarch, etc.) seems best grouped with the catch-all Reading Greek category.
On the Latin side:
Reading Classical Latin
Medieval Latin
Beginning Latin (“Learning Latin”?)
Neo-Latin
Alternatively, neo-Latin, which is mostly based on Classical Latin, could be grouped with Classical Latin and a separate forum could be designated for Latin Poetry, which presents unique problems and requires special reading techniques.
As previously, a great deal of latitude should be allowed, so that no one should be chided for posting in the wrong category. If someone stumbles into the “Reading” forums with an elementary question, for example, they should be entitled to get an answer without being indignantly instructed to post their question elsewhere.
Perhaps the “Beginning” forums should be the first in line. If the order is changed, can there be continuity between pre- and post?
The “Beginning” or “Learning” forums would allow participants to jointly work on beginning textbooks, although these efforts seem to peter out after a while.
We wouldn’t want lose any old posts, so we can’t just remove First Greek Book - White. But perhaps, if it’s technically possible (and not too time-consuming), we could transfer all topics there into Learning Greek and then remove the whole thing?
Also the “introductions” need some reworking. I suggest something in this vein – but this is just a starting point, please improve, or reject altogether if needed!
“Are you reading Homeric Greek or studying Homeric Greek with Pharr’s Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners? Here’s where you can meet other Homeric Greek learners. Use this board for all things Homeric Greek.”
→ “Are you reading Homeric Greek (also known as Epic Greek)? Whether you are a total beginner or an advanced Homerist, here you can meet kindred spirits. Use this board for all things Homeric Greek.”
“Are you learning New Testament Greek with Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek? Here’s where you can meet other learners using this textbook. Use this board to ask questions and post your work for feedback. Use this forum too to discuss all things Koine, LXX & New Testament Greek including grammar, syntax, textbook talk and more.”
→ “Are you learning Koine Greek, also known as New Testament Greek or Biblical Greek? Whatever your level, use this forum too to discuss all things Koine, LXX & New Testament Greek, including grammar, syntax, textbook talk and more.”
EDIT: I posted this before seeing Bill’s post. The idea of separate “reading” and “beginning” sections is good in my opinion. But we also have to decide what to do with the old posts, whether we merge several old forums into one and move the topics, or find some other solution.
Bill has some good suggestions but I’m not sure how the beginning/reading forums would work: that is, where the cutoff would be for posting in one versus posting the other.
The Greek side is well-divided already and wouldn’t take much trouble to redesign. For the Latin, – which indeed is a mess – I’d disagree with separate fora for medieval and neo-Latin (though now that I think of it there are more posts on those topics than I had assumed), folding them instead into a single postclassical forum.
The cutoff between beginning and reading could be between Greek and Latin from textbooks and Greek and Latin in ancient Greek texts, with wide latitude for error.
Neo/modern Latin tends to follow Classical models. Medieval Latin is generally quite different. Again, wide latitude between Classical and Medieval should be allowed. There does seem to be a lot of interest in neo-Latin, so I think a separate forum might be warranted.
I would be against a split between beginning and reading Greek. First off Learning Greek seems to combine the two without problems so why split them. Second I think there is an advantage in that the more knowledgeable among us have mixed in with the very basic beginners questions more challenging and hence more interesting questions. There is a risk that the beginners forum will be ignored.
I would be against a split between beginning and reading Greek.
Both forums would be less cluttered. And a number of more knowledgeable participants respond to those in the initial phases now–why wouldn’t they do so if the forums were split? They can always see the most recent post in each forum, and could respond no less readily if the forums were split.
Another suggestion: delete the misguided post that recommends everyone start with Homeric Greek, even if they aim at reading Plato or Aristotle or anything else, or at least unlock it so that other views can be expressed.
It is inconvenient to check lots of subforums and as a result I only check a limited number. I suspect most people do the same.
Only one click more inconvenient than checking individual threads. And as long as the aggregate number of forums remains low–four each for Greek and Latin–it shouldn’t be a problem. Keeping the aggregate number of forums at no more than four each is essential to my proposal.
Daivid, I think you underestimate the willingness of some of the more advanced members to respond to more elementary questions. Some don’t want to–that’s their prerogative, of course, and leaving what I call “learning Greek” questions mixed in with “reading Greek” won’t change that–but there are enough who are willing to help. I like to try to answer the “learning Greek” questions because they make me review the basics (sometimes with unfortunate results, as in my disastrous response in the “contracted vs. uncontracted” thread).
Some of us get a lot of satisfaction from being able to help others. I put a fair amount of effort into this, and I try to make my responses as clear as I can.
One advantage of splitting the threads as I propose is that threads in both forums would remain prominent longer before being pushed down. The forums would be more coherent, too.
Again, I would propose that the barrier between the two threads remain porous–no shaming of participants who post in the wrong thread, and everyone would be expected to maintain the same standards of civility that prevail now (with one notorious exception).
One other suggestion–instead of just Homeric Greek, maybe a forum dedicated to “Homeric and Archaic Greek”, to invite and collect threads about early elegy, Sappho and Alcaeus, the Homeric hymns, Alcman, Steisichorus, etc. in addition to Homer.
Thanks for unlocking the dialect thread. I’ll go post my rant right away.
If we had separate “learning Greek” and “reading Greek”, the cutoff would be that the former would include all discussions related to textbooks, excercise books, grammar questions, learning strategies and theoretical approach to the language in general. Perhaps we might call it “Studying Greek”, which seems to be a more encompassing term — the sub-forum needn’t be just for novices. “Reading Greek” would be about reading actual ancient texts. Perhaps the point is (and I think I agree) that Bill wants to give a place of honour to reading Greek, because that’s really what serious study of ancient language is aiming at and that’s what we want to encourage people to try to do.
But there’s still the technical problem of what to do with the old posts, if we split the “Learning Greek” forum in two. I suppose it’s possible to merge two forums into one (to get rid of the “White” forum), but the inverse doesn’t seem practicable. Perhaps we might just rename “Learning Greek” to “Learning Greek and reading Greek” or “Studying Greek and reading Greek”? That would at least give the idea that we want help people to get also beyond the basics.
Bill — perhaps “Homeric Greek and Archaic Greek poetry”?
Paul, I don’t want to give a place of honor to what I call “reading Greek,” because, as I mentioned, I get a lot of satisfaction out of helping less advanced participants when I can.
“Homeric Greek and Archaic Greek poetry” --that would be fine, except that there isn’t much archaic Greek prose. Prose hadn’t been invented yet.
Of course, but my idea was that that way it would be clearer to someone who doesn’t know that. “Homeric Greek” is a well-known entity and most people coming here probably undestand what it means, “Homeric and archaic Greek” is a bit vague.
This does arouse the highly moot question about the suitability of the name of the forum, deriving from its original function now to some extent obsolete, as mentioned above. I do appreciate that many may have strong predilection for it. I don’t wish to be too controversial — I just thought that it may lead some potential new users astray.
One question we might consider is do we need all these subforums? Greek nicely divides into Homeric/Attic/Koine (at least for the people who visit here) but the generic “Learning Greek” is 6 times more active than even the most popular subforum. Plus, where would you go with questions about moving from Homeric to Attic or vice versa?
Latin divides less nicely. We could go classic/medieval/neo or something like that, but, unlike Greek where people enter from any of the three types I put above, nearly everyone who comes here is either interested in and/or at least started in classical. Also, while the Greek forums were organized around books from the different types I listed above, the Latin subforums are organized around three classical Latin books. On top of that, the “Learning Latin” forum is 20 times more active than its subforums.
Would there be any value in essentially merging the current subforums in Latin and Greek and instead dividing each language into one for learning the language, one for specific questions about translating particular texts and maybe another for composition and/or discussions in that language?
Would there be any value in essentially merging the current subforums in Latin and Greek and instead dividing each language into one for learning the language, one for specific questions about translating particular texts and maybe another for composition and/or discussions in that language?
My personal view: Biblical/NT Greek, which often gets into lengthy discussions of theological questions, should have its own forum. From time to time, if not all the time, there’s a fair amount of traffic in this area, and I think there are some participants who are more or less entirely focused on Biblical/NT Greek. Again, I would not use the “koine” designation for that forum, as there are plenty of classical texts written after the 4th century in a language that doesn’t observe standards of Attic purity.
Also, “specific questions about translating particular texts” may be a bit too narrow. I would suggest “questions and discussions about specific texts and authors.”
where would you go with questions about moving from Homeric to Attic or vice versa?
My suggestion is that the forums shouldn’t be so strictly segregated–such questions could be posted either in “Learning Greek”, “specific texts and authors” or “Homeric and Early Greek”. But perhaps Homeric could be merged with the general Greek “texts and authors” forum, and a composition forum could be folded into each of the Greek and Latin divisions.
I would like to stress again my commmitement to what is in essense the mos maiorum of this forum, I think any changes have to be carefully, very carefully!, considered and I’ve two worries here:
Logistic: Where would all the posts go? We already have a problem in that the earliest posts which display Greek or Latin with macrons are now illegible. As it stands posts are placed in a more or less sensible subforum.
Sub-fora are tied to books: This is important. People are correct to point out that textkit’s position vis a vis books is no longer strictly unique thanks to archive.org and google. This misses the point. The librarium here has some very good books and readers, which often have keys, and have lots of helpful threads and answered linked to them.
Are they the best textbooks in existence? No, but they are all usable, free, and using them seriously helps cut down on the problem of choice many new users face. As for the sub-fora for modern, paid, books like Wheelock’s and M&F, I understand that these are the most commonly used text in the US? especially for intensive and summer courses.
We have many “guests”. I was a lurker before I joined and I still know many lurkers. One always see references to this place, in fact it made the recent meta-list of Classics resources being passed around. We may have only a few active members, but we have a sizable audience and we should bear that in mind. Someone struggling with a chapter of Wheelock or what principal parts are will always be welcome here even without an account, I don’t want to make things more difficult for them.
With those preliminaries out of the way, here is what I think.
Latin:
Latin defies periodisation. We don’t have enough interest in medieval/renaissance/neo Latin for that to work here. I don’t have the numbers in front of me regarding traffic but the sub-fora have fairly recent posts? I’m sure Latin can be left as it is OR some of the less active subs can be nested in the main “Learning Latin” section.
Greek:
Isn’t “White’s..” the only weakness here? We should keep the Koine/Biblical separate, rename that to “Koine and Biblical Greek” and be done with it, it’s how we use it anyway.
You CAN decouple Homeric Greek from Pharr if you want…except that that’s the most common textbook, surely? I’d probably leave the name as it is.
At best, I’d move “White’s…” and nest it in the generic “Learning Greek” category.
Changing Homeric Greek and Pharr’s Homeric Greek - A Book For Beginners to Homeric Greek and Archaic Greek poetry and likewise Koine Greek And Mounce’s Basics of Biblical Greek to Koine and Biblical Greek reflects how they are currently used.
Learning Greek works well as a forum for all questions of whatever level. Hence - if it aint broke why fix it?
First Greek Book - White has a problem in that it is unused. Is there anything useful it can do that is not being done now. In the past when I have participated in a group working on a specific text book it has been a real problem for me when two or more exercises are combined in one thread. When I have said that it better to have one thread per exercise the answer has been that that would clutter the forum. Changing the role of First Greek Book - White to one for groups working on a specific text book would solve that problem.
Overall. I think Scribo is right to warn us to be cautious about changes unless there is a clear advantage in doing so.