Prosody and syllable stress

Latin Learning Latin
21

I only have time for a quick response:

I would love to see in particular the Roman treatises on these accents in full sentences, just as you’ve described; my intuition is that they are how I have come to employ the spoken language based on my Italian intonation experience, but I would like to see more in short.

As for pácem, that makes more sense, at least as far as Greek accentuation rules go, whereas pâce makes sence in the ablative – but these Roman in-context-in-speech intonation rules are new and very fascinating to me. Please provide more! and the more ancient and Classical (Quintillian) the better.

22

In the meantime, Luci, could you try to explain to me, or articulate, the Greek accentuation rule that you refer to? Or is it a habit of speech more than a rule? (I don’t know any Greek. I can’t claim to be a good latinist either, for that matter, but I’m trying very hard to improve, albeit in a very odd, roundabout way.)

23

There’s an excellent guide to Greek accentuation here. (The examples are in Greek, but the rules are explained in English with diagrams on the Greek words).

24

Thanks, Hu, this site is incredibly useful. It puts some of the primary-source Latin vocabulary into context, or at least I suspect and hope it will when I can study it more carefully.

25

This is what the royal grammar says about differentiation.

DIFFERENTIA.

Differentia tonum transponit: vt Vná aduerbium, vltimam acuit, ne videatur esse nomen: sic, Eó, aliquó, alió, continuó, seduló, porró, forté, quá, siquá, aliquá, nequá, illó, falsó, citó, feré, plané, & id genus alia: putá pro sicut, poné pro póst, corám, circúm, aliás, palám, ergó coniunctio, sed ergô pro causa, circunflectitur, vt, illius ergô ~Venimus. Haec igitur omnia sicut Graeca acutisona, in fine quidem sententiarum acuuntur, in consequentia verò grauantur.
Sic differentiae causa antepenultima suspenditur in his, Déinde, próinde, périnde, aliquando, síquando, húcusque, álonge, délonge, deinceps, dúntaxat, déorsum, quápropter, quínimo, enímuero, propémodum, ådmodum, åffabre, intereá-loci, nihilóminus, paulóminus, cùm non sunt orationes diuersae, vti sunt, Pube tenus, Crurum tenus, non enim composita sunt, velut Háctenus, quátenus, & eius generis reliqua.

Apart from the secondary sources I listed previously, a great source for quotations is Charles W. Johnson, “The Accentus of the Ancient Latin Grammarians”, Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association, Vol. 35 (1904), pp.65-76. Stable URL http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0065-9711(1904)35<65%3ATAOTAL>2.0.CO%3B2-2. But Johnson is not addressing exceptional cases, just the stress-pitch debate about Latin and Greek accenting.

26

Adriane, I’ve really been fascinated by this stuff. I’m interested in seeing examples with full sentences and these final syllable acutes and perhaps graves and circumflexes, and all the musical accents of Latin speech, certainly Roman examples if there are any, but even something as late as the royal grammar would be useful and interesting. Based on what you’ve praesented so far, I’ve done a few studies, but I’d like to see these grammarians’ assertions in context.

27

Dear Luci (or is it Luce?–in a seventeenth century source, I see that the vocative for Lucus can be both Luce and Lucus, and Luci the vocative for Lucius),
I think this stuff may be quite novel so I’m preparing a paper on it and I can email you the paper for your comments when it’s ready (if you would like that). It worries me, of course, that I’m very wrong and exposing my considerable ignorance, or else I’m right but it’s all a commonplace. I promise to post some examples asap (certainly within 24 hours), but what I’m doing immediately is gathering evidence from sources and devising a method for its analysis.

P.S. Lily/Lilly is also a Greek scholar (one of the greatest in England and a buddy of Erasmus and Thomas More) but the similarlities with Greek accenting you detect in him can not be ascribed just to him but more properly to borrowings from the early grammarians, whose Greek influences are well known (as I understand from the secondary sources I referred to earlier).

28

Is this entire discussion postulating that Latin had a pitch accent? From all of the sources I have heard, save Cicero (i.e. acuta vox), Latin is considered to have a stress accent, so why would you use the Greek accentuation symbols?

29

Vir litterarum, the issue you raise is relevant to this discussion. The sources I’m using (mid-to-late 20th century listed earlier) say, basically, that the classical latin accent is a bit of both (stress and pitch). I think the debate about this issue was more polarised in the early-20th century (from what I’ve read). The position I am taking on accent will, I think, incidentally illustrate how this can be possible (stress and pitch), although the discussion hasn’t brought out yet the evidence for this. I hope to get there eventually. Remember also that I want to focus on evidence for accent in the late-Renaissance-early-Modern period and this has only an indirect bearing on classical Roman pronunciation (but I still think it does have a bearing).

Actually, however, whether the accent is one of pitch or of stress is not really what this discussion focusses on (at least from my point of view). For me, it’s about what syllable gets accented, and the evidence to show that the taught rules about accenting before the 18th century were more complicated than the simplified modern position which only taught the penultimate rule and ignored common exceptional cases (a situation that, I think, came about to simplify a botched position on accenting that arose at the end of the 17th century).

Also, I’m using the Greek accents because the evidence is that these accents (talking about the graphic symbols however intended) were used in Latin texts (certain texts–not all) by the Romans and other Europeans up until the nineteenth century.

30

1667 example illustrating sentence prosodic pitch emphasis (stress and destress) as distinct from individual word stress:

R. Rogâsti veniam?
P. Non rogavi, sed tântisper expecta me dum eo rogatum.
…
R. Quo vultu te praeceptori excepit?
N. Hilari sané.
R. Eodem me quoque excéperat.
N. Non solet irasci nobis, nisi illum adeamus intempestivè.
…
R. Quò ascendis?
N. In cubículum nostrum.
R. Quid eó?
N. Petítum thecam scriptóriam.

31

True! My forum name is really just a Textkit handle; “Lucius” is the praenomen I translate for my real name, “Luke.” But “Lucus,” “Lucius,” “Lucas,” I’ll respond to any of them; whichever you like.

I think this stuff may be quite novel so I’m preparing a paper on it and I can email you the paper for your comments when it’s ready (if you would like that). It worries me, of course, that I’m very wrong and exposing my considerable ignorance, or else I’m right but it’s all a commonplace. I promise to post some examples asap (certainly within 24 hours), but what I’m doing immediately is gathering evidence from sources and devising a method for its analysis.

Grand! I eagerly await all these forthcoming materials!


Vir litterarum, as Adrianus explained, Latin should have both stress and pitch. This is merely logical: in English we also have a language whose accentuation is based upon stress, yet we have plenty of pitch variation; for example, an Irishman will tend to have a good deal more pitch variation, or “lilt,” in his English than a Californian. That Latin like every language should also have pitch variation and musical accent follows naturally. What is remarkable about Adrianus’ discoveries here is that the Romans thought about the nature of pitch variation in their language, probably inspired by the Greeks, and have apparently wrote extensively about it. I’ve read some sections and commentaries from grammarians about accute and grave accents, but it never occurred to me that these Romans were distinguishing between musical accent and stress.

Which indeed is the point: to call a stress accent accute or grave or circumflex is largely meaningless to the human ear. Although we will certainly vary the intensities of stresses we apply to words through the period of that stress, those variations are not regular or particularly noticeable like accents of musical pitch. Therefore it is clear that the grammarians were indeed speaking of the pitch variations in Latin, and, rather logically, this system appears to resemble that of Greek and to sound quite similar to the lilt of most Italian.

32

Adriane, those are really amazing examples! If you provide some more, I’ll record my interpretation of them.

33

1688 example:

G. Tenésne memoriâ praelectionem?
I. Propemodum.
G. Visne repetamus uná? [corrected in the original from an earlier edition’s ‘unà ’–not by me]
I. Maximé. [corrected in the original from an earlier edition’s ‘maximè’–not be me]
G. Incipe igitur
…
I. Jam errâsti, incipiendum fuit ab hesterna lectione.

Luci, I believe you are indeed listening to Latin with a distinct Italian accent (as revealed particularly by the circumflected vowels). Significant, also, is that this Latin was spoken in England in 1688, but evidences a long tradition going back at least to the start of the 16th century (and ultimately to Roman grammatical sources), when it was codified by humanist linguist scholars who had researched in the Middle-East, Greece and Rome. Significant, also, are the religious, political and nationalist motivations growing in this period to distance oneself from Roman tradition, which makes the persistence of the teaching with governmental sanction all the more remarkable, until we realize that the significance of such accenting was progressively diminishing. Good immersive Latin teaching was becoming less and less of an option in schools, and conversational teaching resources at the end were less imitated. Finally, such materials came to serve only reading purposes, I think. (Note the modern ring to these issues concerning second-language acquisition in schools. Note, also, that I’m still gathering evidence for these assertions. They might have to toned down a lot, so for the moment they’re meant to be provocative.)

34

adrianus, I’ve long had a desire to learn more about Latin pedagogy in the renaissance and early modern period, though I’ve never known a good way to do it. If you don’t mind, could you also send a copy of the finished paper to me? I’d be delighted both to read your argument and to see the list of primary and secondary sources.

With regards,

David

(as yet too ignorant to contribute much to the discussion but nonetheless enjoying it)

35

Examples from Erasmian colloquies.

In ructu crepitúve ventris salutare, hominis est plùs satìs urbani.
…
Heus, heus, quò properas? Resp. Rectâ Lovanium.
…
Frobenium jubebis meo nomine salvere plurimúm. Erasmiolum item meâ causâ salutabis diligenter. Tum matri Gertudi quà m potes officiosissimè ex me salutem dicito.

Davide, I’d be pleased to send you what I produce for your comments.
Adrianus.

36

Grand, Adriane! I am recording my interpretations praesently. Are you going to post more examples soon that I can add to the full recording?

37

Irresistible example from 1627, to illustrate an ablative other than first declension differentiated by a grave stress:

Ecce mordicùs apprehendit manicam meam. Etiam Ego illi dentes istos omnes euellam, si non dimittit illicò [sic? illicó].

That will do for the moment, Luci. Waiting for your observations before saying more.

Aliud est grammaticè, aliud latinè loqui

38

I am reading the article about Ancient Latin Accent, and this of Quintillian confuses me:

…ultima syllaba nec acuta unquam excitatur, nec flexa circumducitur…

So, then what’s all this about “ergô” and “maximé”?

My thinking is that “acuta” here could mean stress, not musical accent.

39
<?xml version="1.0"?>
40

I have recorded my interpretation of this new pitch accent information, with commentary (about 15 minutes total):

Pars I: http://www.tindeck.com/audio/files/4owze-DeAccentuLaintoMusicali_I.mp3
Pars II: http://www.tindeck.com/audio/files/59ann-DeAccentuLatinoMusicali_II.mp3

I’m not sure my final “dico” commentary was clear, so I’ll write out the words I’m emphasizing (underline means long vowel):

díco
dîcit

dîco


My quaestion now: why is it sometimes there are grave final syllables and sometimes acute? What are the rules governing this placement? if not merely discretion of the speaker or author in imitation the chance intonations of speech — and to write it such, how helpful! for how often have we been confused by words alone, and our misinterpretations of unheard voice mitigated by the appearance of a smily face. :slight_smile:

Another quaestion: in these examples of written pitch accents, is there ever a grave accent placed upon a stressed syllable? I don’t believe that will be likely.

I believe a slight revision of vocabulary will benefit us: that we not use the word “accent” for the stress, but instead call this “ictus,” while reserving “accentus” for the musical pitch. “To accent” : accinere. “To stress” : icere