pronunciation used at LATINUM PODCAST

What about the schwa like sound at the end of “hoc”? Is that correct?

Quendidil, I believe that he is saying “hocce” (or “hicce”). The simple “hoc” shouldn’t have a schwa, however; that’s italian, not latin.

The following is simply copied and pasted from Johan Winge’s page on Classical Pronunciation:

Hic, haec, hoc…

This common pronoun has a peculiarity similar to the one noted above, for, what in dictionaries (and grammars) are listed as “hīc?, “h?c?, really stands for /hĭcc/, /h?cc/, with long consonant. (Historically, what happened was that the pronoun “hĭce?, neuter nominative “h?cce? (from “h?d?+“ce?), lost the trailing “e?, and the resulting /h?cc/ in the neuter was spelled “hoc?. The consonantal length of “hoc? was then sometimes, but not always, borrowed by “hic?, which originally had a short “c?.)

Note that “hīc? and “h?c?, with long vowels, are the correct pronunciations of the adverb, ‘here’, and the pronoun in the ablative, respectively.

You can find the full discussion here:
http://web.comhem.se/alatius/latin/quantity.html

-Evan.

Exactly what, may I ask, is Italian about a schwa? Do you mean when they can’t end words with consonants? Neither can your folk so well, mi querido mexicano. :wink: Although you yourself have clearly mastered this, as I hear from your recordings.

I dont’ think spanish-speaking people add schwas at the end of words, or at least I’m not aware of it. I do know that, for example, many of my fellow mexicans can’t say “Star”, they say “Estar”, but that is at the beginning of a word. Can you give me an example, Luke? :wink:

They do, for consonants that don’t occur at the end of Spanish words often, like ‘k’ or ‘t’ — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that’s a stereotype.

Hmmm… as far as I know, neither k nor t are proper Spanish word-endings. They are usually dropped, like in “bufé” instead of “bufet” or “bisté” instead of “bistec”. No schwa there. :wink: Do you have a more concrete example?

Ok, now listen to this italian fellow speaking latin:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-v1f1AQsdPY&feature=related

Notice he says “estÉ™” and not “est”?

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Salve, Alati!

Is that really you in the Youtube video?! I must say that was quite a show! I thoroughly enjoyed it. :smiley: Vale!

P.S.: Nice socks :stuck_out_tongue:

It is a stereotype, and the Italians unfairly get most of the attention for it, but native speakers of many other languages tend to add these schwas between words to break up some of the more congested consonant clusters that can occur in English when final and initial consonants butt up against each other. Even native speakers have problems with some of them, so don’t feel bad! (We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.) What we tend to do is simplify them rather than breaking them up, and this is why it sounds different enough to attract attention. I get the impression that Latin was more permissive in this regard than, well, Italian for example…but maybe there were schwas breaking up some of these clusters that just weren’t written? Just an idea.

Although off-topic, heroic, I must say, is the ONLY correct word to apply to the clusters -schch- and -tzt- in German. Especially following each other (although I’ve never seen that)

Haha, yup, it is; glad you liked it. :slight_smile: Of course, I would have prefered to wear soleae, as well as a proper (woolen) toga of course, but that will be for a later time. :wink:

The usual Swedish example of consonant clusters is the adjective “västkustskt” (which is an adverb or adjective in the neuter, meaning “belonging to the west coast”). Even better is the (slightly contrived) word “blixtskt” (“having to do with someone named Blixt”): that is six consecutive consonant phonemes at the end of a word! Can German beat that?

Salve Johannes.

Verum non “hoc” dico, sed “hocce”. Scribit Adler " hic is often increased by the addition of the syllable -ce, as hicce, hocce, hujusce, &c" (pg 37).
Ergone, non ‘ante’classical’ est ? Sonitus hicce et hocce amo. Appellatio mea, viz. cui, cogito fortisan ‘ante-classical’ est, qui “quoi” dico.

-Metrodorus.

The quite common word ‘slechtst’ (worst) has 5 consonant phonemes (ch being one phoneme); and because in Dutch we write compounds without spaces, the ‘worst-writing writer’ becomes the “slechtstschrijvende” schrijver.

Ingrid
quoting from ‘Opperlans’, a book that plays games with the dutch language.

Retinēbantur equidem etiam in classicīs temporibus illae f?rmae cum exitū “-ce” scrīptae, ē quibus tamen quaedam, put?, ūsit?ti?rēs sunt; exemplī gr?ti? dēclīn?ti?ne “huiusce” mult? saepius ūsī sunt antīquī scrīpt?rēs, quam ill? “hocce”. Utcunque sē rēs habet, n?n reprēnd? tē, quod “hocce” scrīb?s, sed mihī vidēris scrīpt?rī, cuius opera legis, immeritam vetust?tis speciem tribuere, cum eī, quod sine “-ce” scrīptum est, tamen v?ce “-ce” adiungis. Nihil enim impediēbat, quīn ita scrīptūrus fuerit, sī rē vēr? in anim? habuisset “hocce” dīcendum esse.

Certainly these forms with a final “ce” were retained also in classical times. However, some of them were more common than others. For example, I believe that the form “huiusce” is much more commonly used than “hocce”. Anyhow, I’m not blaming you for writing “hocce”, but it seems to me that you impose an unwaranted archaism unto an author, if you pronounce “ce” at the ends of the pronouns, where none is written. For, if the author had in mind that the older forms should be used, he would surely also have written it that way.

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Johan’s point about reading the classical authors using hoc when they write hoc, is a valid one, but in informal quoting of a text in spoken conversation, I think this is less of an issue. As I said, I like the sound of hocce, hicce, etc in spoken informal Latin. I also personally find [hocc] quite hard to say. Until I can do it well enough to make me happy, you will be hearing more of hocce than of hocc from me.



-Evan.

To make the podcast somewhat easier to navigate, I have now placed an index to the podcast on the right hand sidebar, a more satisfactory arrangement than my previous image file, which had no direct links to the pages containing the information.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com

I have also added a similar topic index to the imaginum vocabularium latinum which had become unwieldy, with over 1600 entries.

http://imaginumvocabulariumlatinum.blogspot.com/

-Evan.

Very nice, I like the new look.

However, it’s “Cantator”, not “Cantantor”. :slight_smile:

Corrections have been made :slight_smile:

If you’d like to have a go recording some more Catullus I’d be really keen to fill out the corpus of Catullus readings.

I’ve uploaded a couple more chapters of Adler today. I’m going under the knife on Wednesday, ENT operation (nothing too serious, though any operation is a bit scary). So, I’ll not be recording, I think, for a couple of weeks.

Evan.