Professor Mastronarde Unit 32 Exercise V page 283

Greek Learning Greek
1

Greetings!
I am supposed to translate an adapted section from Plato’s Protagoras 324d - 325a.
The first sentence was not too bad, but I am having trouble with the second section that I marked in bold. Here is the whole thing:
V. Reading: Plato, Protagoras 324d – 325a (adapted). The sophist Protagoras is trying
to explain to Socrates how political virtue differs from other arts but can nevertheless
be taught.
Ἔτι λείπεται ἡ ἀπορία ἣν ἀπορεῖς περὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν ἀγαθῶν, τί δήποτε οἱ
ἄνδρες οἱ ἀγαθοὶ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς διδάσκουσιν ἃ διδασκάλων ἔχεται
καὶ σοφοὺς ποιοῦσιν, ἐκείνην δὲ τὴν ἀρετὴν ἣν αὐτοί εἰσιν ἀγαθοὶ οὐδενὸς
βελτίους ποιοῦσιν. καὶ περὶ τούτου, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐκέτι μῦθόν σοι ἐρῶ ἀλλὰ
λόγον. ὧδε γὰρ δεῖ νομίζειν· ἔστιν τι ἓν ἢ οὐκ ἔστιν, οὗ ἀνάγκη πάντας τοὺς
πολίτας μετέχειν, εἴπερ μέλλει πόλις εἶναι; ἐν τούτῳ γὰρ αὕτη λύεται ἡ ἀπορία
ἣν σὺ ἀπορεῖς ἢ ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἔστιν, τοῦτο τὸ ἕν ἐστιν οὐ τεκτονικὴ
οὐδὲ χαλκεία οὐδὲ κεραμεία, ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνη καὶ σωφροσύνη καὶ τὸ ὅσιον εἶναι.
καὶ συλλήβδην ἓν αὐτὸ προσαγορεύω εἶναι ἀνδρὸς ἀρετήν.
Underlined words
ἄλλοθι οὐδαμοῦ, nowhere else, in no other place
ἀπορία, -ας, f., difficulty, puzzlement
ἀρετὴν: internal acc. (or acc. of specification) with βελτίους (Unit 17.3b); ἣν is in the
same construction with ἀγαθοὶ
δήποτε (emphatic adv. intensifying interrogative), (why?) in the world
διδάσκω, teach (+ dir. object of person + internal acc. of the thing taught)
εἰ, if
εἴπερ, if in fact
ἔχεται, attaches to; falls within the realm of (+ gen.)
κεραμεία, -ας, f., art of ceramics
μῦθος, -ου, m., tale, story, fable
προσαγορεύω, call (by a certain name: here αὐτὸ is the object; συλλήβδην ἓν may be
taken in apposition to it, and ἀρετήν is a predicate noun)
συλλήβδην (adv.), taken all together, in a word
τεκτονική, -ῆς, f., carpentry
χαλκεία, -ας, f., bronzeworking

So far, I have “There still (yet) remains the difficulty (puzzlement) that you are at a loss about the good men. Why in the world do good men teach the other sons of them other that fall within the realm of teachers and make them wise . . .” But then I am getting uncertain of the wording of that marked in bold. It seems that I have two Main verbs, " ποιοῦσιν" and “εἰσιν.” Do they go together? Is ἀγαθοὶ (good teachers?) the subject of the sentence?

2

ἣν αὐτοί εἰσιν ἀγαθοὶ is a relative clause: “(but as to that arete) in which they are good themselves (they don’t make them better than anyone).” The note explains the accusatives. The subject is οἱ ἄνδρες οἱ ἀγαθοὶ, “good men.”

And before that, you should be able to see that “the other sons of them” is quite wrong. They teach their own sons (τοὺς αὑτῶν ὑεῖς) all the other stuff (τὰ μὲν ἄλλα), but ….

All clear now?

3

ἐκείνην δὲ τὴν ἀρετὴν ἣν αὐτοί εἰσιν ἀγαθοὶ οὐδενὸς
βελτίους ποιοῦσιν. So I have, “Good men do not make nobody better than the virtue in which they themselves are good.” Something like that?

4

οὐδενὸς βελτίους = better than no one = no better than anyone else

5

So it’s, “good men make better than no one that virtue in which they are good themselves.” something like that?

6

No. The object of οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν is still their own sons. For ἐκείνην τὴν ἀρετὴν etc. see the note or the translation I offered.

7

You lost me. Maybe we better go back to square one. The subject is “οἱ ἀγαθοὶ” and the main verb is “ποιοῦσιν.” Is that correct so far?

8

Sorry to have lost you, and I’m not sure we’re going to get anywhere if you don’t follow.
Let me try this. After “good men” (the subject) the sentence forks. On the one hand (μέν) they teach their sons teacherly stuff and make them smart (σοφοὺς ποιοῦσιν). On the other hand (δέ) they make them no better than anyone else (οὐδενὸς βελτίους ποιοῦσιν) in respect of that arete in respect of which they are good themselves (ἐκείνην τὴν ἀρετὴν ἣν αὐτοί εἰσιν ἀγαθοὶ).
If there’s a difficulty here it lies with the accusatives dependent on βελτίους and ἀγαθοὶ, which I’ve over-translated here with “in respect of” (cf. Smyth 1600-1601). Don’t take ἐκείνην τὴν ἀρετὴν as the direct object; that defies the grammar as well as making nonsense.

If you’re still lost, I suggest you move on.

9

The “over-translations” of the internal accusatives helps. Speaking of internal accusatives, one of Professor Mastronarde’s notes is confusing me. It states,
“ἀρετὴν: internal acc. (or acc. of specification) with βελτίους (Unit 17.3b); ἣν is in the same construction with ἀγαθοὶ.” With my limited grasp of internal accusatives, I think of an internal accusative as associated with a verb. I am not sure if Professor Mastronarde’s note is saying:

  1. ἀρετὴν is an internal accusatve of βελτίους. That would confuse me since βελτίους is a comparative adjective.
  2. ἀρετὴν and βελτίους are internal adjetives?
  3. Something else?
10

Lukas, at this point you should go to page 141 of M. at the bottom of the page and review “Internal accusative with adjectives”.

11

I do not see what the bottom of page 141 has to do with ἀρετὴν or βελτίους. Can you explain it?

12

Well, I no longer have the Mastronarde book and I don’t remember just what he says, but I think I can explain. ἐκείνην τὴν ἀρετὴν can be thought of as an internal accusative with βελτίους (“better at that virtue,” let’s say), and ἣν can similarly be thought of as an internal accusative with ἀγαθοί. More traditional grammatical terminology would label these accusatives of respect or accusatives of specification (a simple example would be Sophocles’ πάντα κακός, “bad in every respect”), but they can reasonably be called “internal” accusatives even though here they’re not internal to verbs but to adjectives.

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13
  • ἀγαθοί εἰσιν τὴν ἀρετήν - they are good as far as the virtue goes
  • τὴν ἀρετὴν βελτίονες – they are better in the virtue
  • τὴν ἀρετὴν τοὺς υἱοὺς ποιοῦσιν βελτίους – they make their sons better in the virtue
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14

It’s worth remembering that βελτίους can be nominative, since it’s the contracted form of βελτίονες as well as of βελτίονας. Same with χείρους worse.

oi ὑεῖς αὐτῶν τὴν ἀρετὴν οὐ βελτίους εἰσίν, their sons are not better in goodness.

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15

Yes. In fact, I first wrote βετίους in the nominative example, but changed it for the sake of clarity. It seemed (and seems) like a lesson for another time.

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16

προσαγορεύω, call (by a certain name: here αὐτὸ is the object; συλλήβδην ἓν may be
taken in apposition to it, and ἀρετήν is a predicate noun)

Just making sure from this note that “apposition” means a noun or phrase that explains another noun.

17

More or less, yes, but it has to be in grammatical agreement, as here ἕν is in agreement with αὐτό, and so “may be taken” (a more circumspect formulation than “is”) in apposition to it. “I call it(αυτό)—in a word, a single thing(ἕν)—goodness.” It’s developing his isolation of τοῦτο τὸ ἕν, “this single thing.” Most cases of apposition are more straightforward than this, and much easier to translate!