Plato, Symposium 200c

Greek Learning Greek
1

I’m having a lot of trouble with this passage:

ἴσως γὰρ ἄν τις ταῦτα οἰηθείη καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα τοὺς ὄντας [200ξ] τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν,

In my bafflement, I consulted the LCL translation. It seems to translate “ταῦτα . . . καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα” as “in these and in all cases of this sort.” Should the accusatives in this snip be understood as accusative of respect?

How to think of ὄντας and ἔχοντας? Should they be thought of as “the men being [ swift, etc.]” and “the men having [swiftness, etc.]”?

Finally, I will be grateful for a grammatical unpacking of ταῦτα τούτων ἅπερ.

Here is the Greek context:

εἰ γὰρ καὶ ἰσχυρὸς ὢν βούλοιτο ἰσχυρὸς εἶναι, φάναι τὸν Σωκράτη, καὶ ταχὺς ὢν ταχύς, καὶ ὑγιὴς ὢν ὑγιής—ἴσως γὰρ ἄν τις ταῦτα οἰηθείη καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα τοὺς ὄντας [200ξ] τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν, ἵν᾽ οὖν μὴ ἐξαπατηθῶμεν, τούτου ἕνεκα λέγω—

2

ἴσως γὰρ ἄν τις ταῦτα οἰηθείη καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα | τοὺς ὄντας τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα | τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν.

Just looking at this bit, I’ve marked it off into its three main components. It first looks as if ταῦτα καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα (“these and all things of this sort”) will be the direct objects of οἰηθείη (perhaps with an infinitive to follow); but no, they retrospectively become accusatives of respect, since we then have τοὺς ὄντας τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα (“those who are of such a kind and have these things”), with an eventual infinitive (ἑπιθυμεῖν) to follow; and ἑπιθυμεῖν (which takes genitive) governs τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι (“these things which they have”).

So we end up with “For perhaps one would think (as to) these and all things of this sort that those who both (τε) are of such a kind and possess these things also (και) desire these things that they possess.”
Note how the τε signals the two participial phrases belonging to the τοὺς (ὄντας τοιούτους and ἔχοντας ταῦτα), leaving only τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν, where the και fronting the all-important ἐπιθυμεῖν will mean “also” or “actually”.

Feel free with follow-up questions, but I hope that clarifies it some. You see it’s basically an acc. & inf. construction.

3

Many thanks Michael.

I must study your reply and the passage.

Upon first reading it I was at a loss. After much effort, I tried matching each phrase of the LCL translation with the Greek. That helped, but it didn’t take me to a satisfactory understanding of the grammar.

4

Thank you for inviting followups.

Here are some thoughts for your judgment. I want to put together a complete understanding of the grammar of this sentence.

  1. I’m thinking the “acc. & inf. construction” [ τοὺς ὄντας τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα | τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν] is indirect statement. ?

  2. “τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι” is (I suggest) a subordinate clause with an indicative verb, subordinate to the acc. & inf. construction. ?

  3. The subject of “ἐπιθυμεῖν” is the accusative expression “τοὺς ὄντας τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας”, which is identical with the unstated subject of ἔχουσι". ?

  4. τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι. Could you explain what work “τούτων” is doing in this clause?

5
  1. Yes, dep. on οἰηθείη … ἄν τις.
  2. ἅπερ ἔχουσι is an ordinary relative clause (unaffected by the acc.&inf.). τουτων (neut.) is the antecedent of ἅπερ.
  3. Yes. (And ταυτα is the object of εχοντας.)
  4. τουτων (neut.) is the antecedent of ἅπερ. It’s genitive because it’s the object (or quasi-object) of επιθυμειν, which takes the genitive.
6

Many thanks, Michael, and especially for the additional explanation on #4.

7

…ἴσως γὰρ ἄν τις ταῦτα οἰηθείη καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα τοὺς ὄντας τε τοιούτους καὶ ἔχοντας ταῦτα τούτων ἅπερ ἔχουσι καὶ ἐπιθυμεῖν, ἵν’ οὖν μὴ ἐξαπατηθῶμεν, τούτου ἕνεκα λέγω…

Ι think ταῦτα and πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα are a premature (in English) mention of the upcoming ταῦτα object of ἔχοντας. Here’s how I translate:

…because someone might think that people of this kind, having these things (these things and everything of the sort) also desire these things which they have (just so we get this straight, I’m only speaking on behalf of the guy who thinks this way)…

8

Joel seems to understand it as I did, except that I made a point of taking it in the order in which it comes and I take τούτου ἕνεκα as neuter, referring to the ἵνα purpose clause.