Hi. I’m having some difficulty understanding the nuances of this combination of particles in this sentence of the Apology:
μὴ οὖν ἀξιοῦτέ με, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τοιαῦτα δεῖν πρὸς ὑμᾶς πράττειν ἃ μήτε ἡγοῦμαι καλὰ εἶναι μήτε δίκαια μήτε ὅσια, ἄλλως τε μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως καὶ ἀσεβείας φεύγοντα ὑπὸ Μελήτου τουτουΐ.
I’ve checked Denniston, who merely says that this usage is extremely rare. Any help would be appreciated!
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There is a parallel passage in the clouds 1269. Dover simply refers to your Plato passage and Denniston.
In Greek Syntax: Early Greek Poetic and Herodotean Syntax, Volume 3 (Guy L. Cooper, Karl Wilhelm Krüger) p 3041) we have:
“τε μέντοι … [is] rare or relatively rare, and must be perhaps considered incidental having no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts.:”
This translation from Thomas West’s Plato’s Apology seems to capture as much as can be achieved in English.
“So do not deem that I, men of Athens, should practice such
things before you which I hold to be neither noble nor just nor
pious, and certainly, by Zeus, above all not when I am being prosecuted for impiety by Meletus here.”
ἄλλως τε μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως καὶ ἀσεβείας φεύγοντα ὑπὸ Μελήτου τουτουΐ
ἄλλως τε . . . καὶ here means “otherwise . . . and [especially] being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus person” (the deictic τουτουΐ is contemptuous).
αλλως τε και/αλλοι τε και is a common idiom that usually translates “especially”. (In English, “others” or “otherwise” isn’t needed.)
Thus, τε μέντοι is not a unit in itself. μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως makes ἄλλως τε very emphatic: something like "in all circumstances, mind you, by Zeus, and [especially] [now that I’m] being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus character.
Thus, τε μέντοι is not a unit in itself.
This is how I took it at first before I looked at Cooper and Krüger and Dover on Clouds. I havent looked at Denniston but AlexEmp said he merely notes it is rare.
Yet another piece of Greek I dont understand!
“Yet another piece of Greek I don’t understand!”
I don’t mean to be condescending, since you obviously know Greek quite well, but of course you understand this–it really doesn’t pose any great difficulty once you recognize that ἄλλως τε . . . καὶ fits together as a regular Greek idiom, and that μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως give emphasis to ἄλλως τε. I think that in this case your quote from Cooper hits the nail on its head here: τε μέντοι has “no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts”.
As you read this, ἄλλως τε should set up an instinctive expectation of an eventual καὶ.
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But is there a fundamental difference between the two, except that English like is considered colloquial? I haven’t studied the question, but I suppose that in part the fact that English doesn’t have such a variety of different particles is due to intonation playing a very important role to convey the same sort of nuances.
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I was a bit confused by the idea that the LSJ would ever give such a piece of tanslationese for a definition until I looked it up and saw that the LSJ has “both otherwise and” without the so.
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Assuming the online versions are accurate (a big assumption and I’m not at home) Middle Liddel has the so, but not the Great Scott. I see what they’re trying to say, but it’s translationese.
I didn’t mean to suggest that each of the separate elements of the phrase μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως doesn’t have a meaning in itself or that the entire phrase merely adds emphasis–rather, I was trying to isolate the idiom ἄλλως τε . . . καί, which belongs together as a unit. Certainly πάντως means something like “in all circumstances” or “in every aspect of life”. μέντοι and νὴ Δία perhaps have a less precise function and veer towards being merely emphatic.
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I should have noted that the word to which μέντοι and νὴ Δία add emphasis is not ἄλλως but πάντως. It’s hard to translate this because “otherwise” (for ἄλλως) is superfluous in the English idiom. "in every circumstance–mind you, by Zeus, in all circumstances–and particularly now that I’m being prosecuted for asebeia by this Meletus here. "
I don’t mean to be condescending, since you obviously know Greek quite well, but of course you understand this
I have always found your posts interesting, helpful and often amusing, never condescending.
I am loath to prolong this thread, but my exasperation was that I was influenced to take τε μέντοι as a syntactic unit by Cooper and Dover. It seemed to me perverse of those authors, particularly Cooper (and also perhaps Denniston) to list it as a rare combination albeit with a description that it has “no established idiomatic sense of [its] own as distinguished from that of the sum of [its] constituent parts.” In my mind there is a contradiction in listing τε μέντοι as a syntactic unit only to say effectively it isnt. I worry at such times whether I understand the issue at all.
MarkAnthony, I dont understand what you mean by your remark " I was simply asking pardon for @seneca2008’s remark that he had had difficulty with the Greek!" Nor do I ask you to explain it. But rest assured if I need to beg pardon for anything I will do so most fulsomely.
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ἷξον δ᾽ ἐς πεδίον πυρηφόρον, ἔνθα δ᾽ ἔπειτα
ἦνον ὁδόν: τοῖον γὰρ ὑπέκφερον ὠκέες ἵπποι.
δύσετό τ᾽ ἠέλιος σκιόωντό τε πᾶσαι ἀγυιαί.
Sufficient comment I think.
One last effort at translation (sort of):
"ἄλλως τε–[no, not just ἄλλως], mind you, πάντως goddamit!–and especially now that I’m under indictment for profanity by this here Meletus person. "
μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως interrupts the usual idiom ἄλλως τε καὶ to stress that it’s not just “in other circumstances” but “in all circumstances” that Socrates avoids doing ἃ μήτε ἡγοῦμαι καλὰ εἶναι μήτε δίκαια μήτε ὅσια. Perhaps μέντοι νὴ Δία πάντως should be set off by dashes. The collocation of τε and μέντοι is purely fortuitous and has no independent significance.
The homoteleuton ἄλλως/πάντως contributes to the rhetorical efficacy of this point.
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