Penthesilea, Amazon Warrior Queen

Textkit Community Civilization and Culture of the Greeks and Romans
1

We all need a bit of cheering up so you might be interested in “Natalie Haynes Stands up for classics” which is available as a podcast. The latest episode was amusing as well as quite informative and includes a contribution from Professor Edith Hall who is a frequent broadcaster on the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jfpc

You will be able to find previous episodes here. I found the Iliad and Helen of Troy fun.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b077x8pc/episodes/downloads

Rather than make a separate thread I will mention here that Professor Hall was on “Start the Week” on Monday with a very interesting programme entitled “Classics and class”. This is from the website:

"The classics have never been solely the preserve of the British intellectual elite, according to the classicist Edith Hall. In A People’s History of Classics, Hall and her co-writer Henry Stead examine the working class experience of classical culture from the Bill of Rights in 1689 to the outbreak of World War II. This history challenges assumptions about the elitism surrounding the study of ancient Greeks and Romans, and Hall hopes it will expand the debate around the future of classical education for all.

An understanding of the classics could also help people reinvigorate cynicism: from the jaded negativity of today, back to its initial idea of fearless speech. In his latest book, Ansgar Allen, returns to the Greek Cynics of the 4th century BCE, a small band of eccentrics who practised an improvised philosophy that challenged all social norms and scandalised their contemporaries. In the centuries that followed this exacting philosophy was hugely watered down. Today’s cynics, who lack social and political convictions, would be barely recognisable to their bold and shameless forefathers."

Podcast is here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jfy6

2

Here is the fixed link, in case people want to listen: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jfpc

She is arguing for the idea that “like Engels always said”, it was modern man that invented the idea of enslaving women, and that there were plenty of pre-civilized examples of warrior women, which in turn created the Greek stories about the Ἀμαζόνες.

While I’m sure that there were some tough women in the Russian steppe – it was and is a tough place – it seems more than a little incredulous that this is any sort of explanation for the Amazon myth. Any more than tough women during WWII – my grandmother for one, a real-life “Rosie the Riveter” she always told us – were any sort of explanation for 1940s-1980s (and 2017!) popular “Amazonian” cheesecake figures like Wonder Woman. (But perhaps, were she still with us, my grandmother may have disagreed about that.)

I think that the bulk of the evidence points to a tough and savage reality for women outside of civilization, everywhere we have any sort of record. Slaves, not queens. Will Durant tells (a perhaps apocryphal) story of the Conquistadors being quizzed about their strange looking women by a local North American Indian tribe, who had, in the absence of female Europeans, mistook their beasts of burden for their females. A local Indian leader, when asked about his “particularly bad-looking” wife, gave the standard response about women being all the same where it counts that you hear from foul-mouthed/minded people today.

The overall approach of the podcast was a bit sexually chauvinist for my taste. I suppose that’s what gets listeners, but I wish that the BBC would police its tone better. This is not how men or women should discuss their respective sexes, especially when aiming for seriousness.

3

Thank you for correcting the link in my post - an errant “.” appeared at the end. I have corrected it in my post too.

Those who have not listened to this podcast will be interested to know that the “She” in the above post is Professor Hall who describes some archaeology carried out ln the Russian steppe. Burials of females were discovered and an examination of the skeletons showed that they had spent a lot of time in the saddle and that they had ridges on their fingers which are characteristic of people who practice archery for long periods. This all pointed to nomadic bands of female riders who hunted with bows.

Professor Hall then remarked " As Engels always said it was building cities and having property - real estate - that you had to hand down - that was the point at which women went under. "

At no point did she say that men enslaved women.

Whatever one might think of Engels’ ideas about anthropology and the transition from pre-urban societies - and I really dont know enough about this to argue about it, it is wholly wrong to attribute to Professor Hall something she did not actually say.

I didnt find any of the content of this programme “chauvinist”.But if you have something specific in mind perhaps you could share it.

BBC editorial policy is perhaps the subject for a separate thread. If you ever have a specific objection there is a mechanism where you can make a complaint about content.

Let us not forget that “Natalie Haynes Stands Up for the Classics” is a light hearted exploration of classical topics or as it says on the web site “a fresh look at the ancient world, creating stand-up routines about figures from ancient Greece and Rome”. It was in the spirit of providing something entertaining that I posted about it.

Those who are not able to listen to it may find the following description from the website interesting.

"Natalie Haynes tells of Penthesilea, Amazon warrior queen, in charge of ‘a bunch of golden-shielded, silver-axed, man-loving, boy-killing women,’ with a natty line in ankle boots, and even trousers, a scandalous item of clothing at the time. These fighting women were respected as exceptional warriors and Penthesilea was given a hero’s burial when she died in battle.

Unusually for women in antiquity, many Amazon’s names are recorded (on vases) and they are excellent: ‘She Who Lets the Dogs Out’; ‘She Who Is Enthusiastic at Sex’; ‘She Who Fights like a Man’. Although Amazons are regarded as mythological figures, there is strong evidence for the existence of nomadic fighting women from burial grounds in the Russian steppes.

In this locked down, more intimate version of her show, Natalie offers escape to a different realm: the mythological. As fresh and funny as ever, Natalie brings us new insights into the original girl gang, as well as gossipy erudition from a couple of thousand years of culture, with the help of Professor Edith Hall."

In case any of you are worried about the “boy-killing” Natalie Haynes did say this was something that she did not approve of. That was probably in response to BBC guidelines. :smiley:

4

I’ve listened to other episodes of this show and want to add my approval. Well worth listening to.