Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 211-238

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Greek but have never tried reading Homer before are doubly welcome.

Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.

We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf
An introduction to Book 6 and a list of resources for deeper study are available in the group dropbox folderNext week (Friday 16th August) we’ll be reading Book 6 Lines 239-261

211 ὣς ἔφαθ᾽, αἱ δ᾽ ἔσταν τε καὶ ἀλλήλῃσι κέλευσαν,
212 κὰδ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ Ὀδυσσῆ᾽ εἷσαν ἐπὶ σκέπας, ὡς ἐκέλευσεν
213 Ναυσικάα θυγάτηρ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο·
214 πὰρ δ᾽ ἄρα οἱ φᾶρός τε χιτῶνά τε εἵματ᾽ ἔθηκαν,
215 δῶκαν δὲ χρυσέῃ ἐν ληκύθῳ ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον,
216 ἤνωγον δ᾽ ἄρα μιν λοῦσθαι ποταμοῖο ῥοῇσιν.
217 δή ῥα τότ᾽ ἀμφιπόλοισι μετηύδα δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς·
218 “ἀμφίπολοι, στῆθ᾽ οὕτω ἀπόπροθεν, ὄφρ᾽ ἐγὼ αὐτὸς
219 ἅλμην ὤμοιιν ἀπολούσομαι, ἀμφὶ δ᾽ ἐλαίῳ
220 χρίσομαι· ἦ γὰρ δηρὸν ἀπὸ χροός ἐστιν ἀλοιφή.
221 ἄντην δ᾽ οὐκ ἂν ἐγώ γε λοέσσομαι· αἰδέομαι γὰρ
222 γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών.”
223 ὣς ἔφαθ᾽, αἱ δ᾽ ἀπάνευθεν ἴσαν, εἶπον δ᾽ ἄρα κούρῃ.
224 αὐτὰρ ὁ ἐκ ποταμοῦ χρόα νίζετο δῖος Ὀδυσσεὺς
225 ἅλμην, ἥ οἱ νῶτα καὶ εὐρέας ἄμπεχεν ὤμους,
226 ἐκ κεφαλῆς δ᾽ ἔσμηχεν ἁλὸς χνόον ἀτρυγέτοιο.
227 αὐτὰρ ἐπεὶ δὴ πάντα λοέσσατο καὶ λίπ᾽ ἄλειψεν,
228 ἀμφὶ δὲ εἵματα ἕσσαθ᾽ ἅ οἱ πόρε παρθένος ἀδμής,
229 τὸν μὲν Ἀθηναίη θῆκεν Διὸς ἐκγεγαυῖα
230 μείζονά τ᾽ εἰσιδέειν καὶ πάσσονα, κὰδ δὲ κάρητος
231 οὔλας ἧκε κόμας, ὑακινθίνῳ ἄνθει ὁμοίας.
232 ὡς δ᾽ ὅτε τις χρυσὸν περιχεύεται ἀργύρῳ ἀνὴρ
233 ἴδρις, ὃν Ἥφαιστος δέδαεν καὶ Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη
234 τέχνην παντοίην, χαρίεντα δὲ ἔργα τελείει,
235 ὣς ἄρα τῷ κατέχευε χάριν κεφαλῇ τε καὶ ὤμοις.
236 ἕζετ᾽ ἔπειτ᾽ ἀπάνευθε κιὼν ἐπὶ θῖνα θαλάσσης,
237 κάλλεϊ καὶ χάρισι στίλβων· θηεῖτο δὲ κούρη.
238 δή ῥα τότ᾽ ἀμφιπόλοισιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετηύδα·

The unusual nature of Odysseus’ bath in this passage raises lots of questions and will, I think, lead to various conclusions for people who read these threads. It is, by my count, one of thirteen bathing episodes in the Odyssey compared with five in the Iliad (two of which are the washing of corpses). Seneca introduced liminal spaces to the discussion last week - the bath in Homer is often a moment of transformation and rebirth which seems to mark the passage between states.

So far, we’ve had Telemachus’ bath in Pylos, given by Polycaste, from which he emerges looking godlike (δέμας ἀθανάτοισιν ὁμοῖος 3.468), marking his coming of age. Tellingly, this is quickly followed by his bath in Sparta (Book 4) where no further transformation occurs. Also in Book 4, we’ve had a description of Helen bathing Odysseus at Troy when he was in disguise as a beggar (giving us a glimpse of later events), and Calypso gives Odysseus a bath before he leaves Ogygia. Nausicaa’s bath is, I think, the only example of a female character bathing apart from Aphrodite in Book 8, and doesn’t seem to have any special significance attached to it - make of this what you will.

Odysseus’ bath here in Book 6 is the only example in Homer of a character refusing to be bathed by someone else. Sending the ἀμφίπολοι away has the advantage for the plot that Odysseus can be ‘beautified’ without them seeing, leading to his big reveal. His own reason, feeling ashamed of his nakedness, doesn’t seem to make sense as there are lots of other examples of men being bathed by young women. As we learn later, his journey from Ogygia to Scheria really seems to have taken it out of him and he’s completely filthy, so maybe it’s more shame over his physical appearance. Others have suggested that he has bad memories of being bathed by Circe and Calypso, so he’s being extra careful with these unknown women.

My take on this scene is that it’s important that he bathes himself here and that it has huge significance within the Odyssey as a whole. Like the warriors who return from battle in the Iliad and wash away blood and gore, Odysseus doesn’t just bathe here (λούω) but washes himself (νίζω), a word normally used in the Odyssey to refer to the washing of hands (and never in bathing scenes, I don’t think). It is tellingly used again in another pivotal cleansing (but not bathing) scene when he is washed and recognised by Eurycleia. I risk over-reading here perhaps, but it seems to me that Odysseus is ritually and literally washing away the gore (i.e. ἅλμη) of his battle with the sea using fresh water (he doesn’t sail again himself after this point and the Phaeacians’ ships are more like teleportation than sailing) and preparing himself for his old life. The baths that others have given him (Circe, Calypso) have failed to renew him, so he has to do it himself - although, as usual, with Athena sprinkling the magic dust.

I also think there is much to be said about the significance of his bathing where clothes have just been washed and Nausicaa’s role as launderer, but this post is already too long.

My conclusion: remind my daughters to take an extra pair of men’s clothes and bathing supplies, in case you meet a naked man at the shore who needs a bath. :open_mouth:

As I think I suggested before, it’s worth paying attention to how aidws operates. At the beginning fo bk.3 Telemachus says that aidws inhibits young men from questioning their elders, and accordingly he has to overcome his aidws in order to address Nestor. (We can say that Athene emboldens him, but that is to say the same thing in different words—I think I mentioned double motivation earlier too.) Nausikaa would similarly be restrained by aidws from personally bathing Odysseus (just as she was restrained from mentioning marriage). She’s no Calypso, nor Circe.
Polykaste could bathe Telemachus without any such inhibition, but as Nestor’s daughter she is a much older (best not to ask how old!) and more experienced woman; and it’s standard practice for a woman to pour the water when someone takes a bath. It’s quite different with Nausikaa—a young aristocratic girl whom we may think of as barely having reached puberty. For Nausikaa to personally bathe and oil Odysseus is unthinkable—both for her and for him, who out of aidws sends even her maids away (which does not mean he feels ashamed of his nakedness—that would be aisxunh, not aidws; the fact that he’s ended up filthy and naked after his marine experiences may well be a bit embarrassing for him among all these nubile innocents but it’s nothing to be ashamed of, nothing dishonourable—he’s done nothing shameful).

Shipwrecked and thrown up naked on shore: for comparison there’s that splendidly vituperative curse by Archllochus or Hipponax (experts disagree which)—Hippon. *115 West.. Similar situation, different ethos.

I agree with what mwh says here, except perhaps about Polykaste. Logically thinking, she should be at least 20 years old, if she was born before the Trojan war. In her culture that was probably a bit old for an unmarried woman, though not excessively so (she might also be a child of 10 years max, if born after the war, but let’s not think about that). But I don’t think Homer intends us to make exact calculations about her age. I think we’re just supposed to assume that she’s a young girl (Νέστορος ὁπλοτάτη θυγάτηρ 3.465) in the same age group as Telemachus and her brother Peisistratus.

(Speaking about chronological problems – Telemachus is described as someone who has only just reached maturity and hasn’t even noticed what the suitors were up to until very recently. He would be more credible if his age were 15 or 16 instead of 20, but in that case Odysseus’ 10 year wanderings would need to be abridged. My point being that we shouldn’t be too obsessive about how old each character must be.)

It’s not impossible that Polykaste at 20 or so is already considered a “more experienced woman”, but I think that the more likely the reason for her lack of inhibition is that Telemachus’ bath takes place in the megaron, right in everyone’s sight, where nothing improper can happen; considering that it happens in the middle of a sacrificial feast, it seems to be a ritual that has more significance than just cleanliness. It would have been altogether different if Nausicaa had personally bathed Odysseus in the wilderness, where anything could have happened.

Helen bathing Odysseus the beggar is altogether different, apparently a rather private event, but notoriously Helen didn’t exactly have a reputation to protect.

Perhaps it worthwhile to note that different cultures have different attitudes to nakedness. Nudity is of course a taboo everywhere, but to what degree varies a lot. The Ancient Greeks apparently didn’t think it was a big deal, at least as far as men were concerned. Take for example these bath scenes in Homer, or the fact that they competed in athletics naked, or Herodotus 1.10.3 παρὰ γὰρ τοῖσι Λυδοῖσι, σχεδὸν δὲ καὶ παρὰ τοῖσι ἄλλοισι βαρβάροισι καὶ ἄνδρα ὀφθῆναι γυμνὸν ἐς αἰσχύνην μεγάλην φέρει “since among the Lydians and most barbarians it is felt as a great shame that even a man be seen naked.”

Let me digress a bit… Going to sauna is an important part of Finnish culture, so here nakedness isn’t a big deal. Foreign visitors usually find this a bit strange, but most of the time they get over their initial suspicions and enjoy sauna a lot – the exception being in my and other people’s experience some Italians and Americans, many of whom are too shy to try it. Anyway, there’s often a sauna in student parties as well. The typical scenario is that the girls’ turn to go to sauna is first and the boys’ turn comes after. Boys aren’t supposed to go during the girls’ turn, but it’s perfectly ok for girls to go during the boys’ turn; the typical result is that the sauna is almost empty during the girls’ turn, because many girls find the their own turn boring and wait for the boys’ turn when the party really begins. Students like student pranks everywhere, and what they do here after a few beers and warming up in the sauna is going out for a naked run – mostly boys of course, but I’ve seen girls do it as well. Different student organizations even attribute humorous degrees for different achievements – when I was a med student, it was something like approbatur for running around the block, cum laude approbatur for running to a nearby European country’s embassy (the Italian one was situated maybe 200 m away) and laudatur for a superpower’s embassy (the American and Russian were much farther - 1 or 2 km). To become a doctor you had to ride the tram without the driver expelling you when you told him that your ticket is in your trousers’ pockets, or something (I don’t think anyone ever really did that). Anyway, I wanted to raise the question of cultural differences… Not long ago, I was discussing this student naked run tradition with a Finnish friend who has lived in the States. He suggested that if anyone went running around naked at an American student party, he (or she?) would be arrested as a sexual offender and suspended from their college/university and would have to forget all dreams of ever working as a respectable doctor, lawyer or whatever.

I think we have lost sight of the text in our discussion about bathing. Does she ever actually offer to bathe Odysseus?

Naussica says:

" ἀλλὰ δότ᾿, ἀμφίπολοι, ξείνῳ βρῶσίν τε πόσιν τε,
210 λούσατέ τ᾿ ἐν ποταμῷ, ὅθ᾿ ἐπὶ σκέπας ἔστ᾿ ἀνέμοιο.”

which means she instructs her slaves to bathe Odysseus in the river.

Then in 211-216 we have:

ὣς ἔφαθ᾿, αἱ δ᾿ ἔσταν τε καὶ ἀλλήλῃσι κέλευσαν,
κὰδ δ᾿ ἄρ᾿ Ὀδυσσῆ᾿ εἷσαν ἐπὶ σκέπας, ὡς ἐκέλευσεν
Ναυσικάα θυγάτηρ μεγαλήτορος Ἀλκινόοιο·
πὰρ δ᾿ ἄρα οἱ φᾶρός τε χιτῶνά τε εἵματ᾿ ἔθηκαν,
215 δῶκαν δὲ χρυσέῃ ἐν ληκύθῳ ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον,
ἤνωγον δ᾿ ἄρα μιν λοῦσθαι ποταμοῖο ῥοῇσιν."

The slaves here seem to tell Odysseus to wash himself thus not obeying the instructions given by Nausicaa. There then follows a totally unnecessary and to my mind disingenuous speech by Odysseus about his shame at being seen naked by the slaves. He is already naked apart from a “leafy branch” covering his genitals. Perhaps he is concerned about exposing his genitals but its not clear why that should be. Whatever the status of the “handmaidens” or “slaves” it seems a bit odd to be concerned about the degree of nudity. In any event there doesn’t seem to me any question of Nausicaa offering to bathe Odysseus herself. She does, however, offer a bath and that is part of Xenia as we have agreed, although our interpretation of the meaning of this act differs somewhat.

Since beginning this I have discovered “Odyssey 6.209-223: The Instructions To Bathe”, P.V.Jones Mnemosyne, Vol. XLII, Fase. 3-4 (1989). So before continuing I will read it but post my thoughts as they stand now.

The text says αἰδέομαι γὰρ / γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών “I’m emberassed of being naked in the presence of fair-tressed young girls”. As mwh pointed out, Odysseus is not really feeling shame about “being seen naked” by the girls, but he’s embarrassed in an awkward situation. Furthermore, although he claims to be embarrassed, I think he is conscious that the situation is even more embarrassing to the slave girls, and he just wants to be tactful and show that he also is embarrassed and represents no threat at all.

I don’t agree with this. I think both you and MWH are importing your own sensibility into the text. Its not clear to me why here “αἰδέομαι” should mean “embarrassment” rather than “shame” which its more usual dictionary definition. Nor is it clear to me exactly the distinction that is being drawn between the two English words. Surely embarrassment and shame are implicated in each other so I am not sure what point is being made. “I am ashamed to stand naked in front of you” and “I am embarrassed to stand naked in front of you” have the same meaning to me. The reason for embarrassment is the shame involved.

If you are claiming that Odysseus means not what he says but “you would be embarrassed if I stood naked in front of you” I can accept that’s how you read it although it seems stretching the text which I would not expect you to do. Odysseus shows tact and cunning when he is trying to get something but these women are slaves and it is Nausicaa that calls the shots.

Have you had a chance to finish reading the article? From what I gather, Jones rejects the modesty argument and proposes that Odysseus says the lines 221-2 to rescue Nausicaa from the potentially embarrassing situation of her slaves not obeying her orders by giving him what he needs to bathe himself and then leaving him to it, rather than actually bathing him, as ordered. So he claims he’s embarrassed in their presence and tells them to stay where they are and that he will wash himself, thus preventing loss of face for Nausicaa.

Just a quick reply. Jones does argue that Odysseus is motivated by trying to ensure that Nausicaa doesn’t lose face but he doesn’t think Odysseus is in any way embarrassed.

I found his argument persuasive that Nausicaa is trying, ineptly, to initiate the ritual of Xenia, but fails because her youth and lack of experience means she gets part of it wrong. The slaves are confused and don’t know what to do so they tell Odysseus to wash himself. He has seen Nausicaa instruct the slaves to wash him and their failure to comply so he attempts to prevent the loss of face for Nausicaa by sending them off.

I will try to post something on the article later this evening if I can find the energy, unless anyone else does.

Seneca, you’re evidently not acquainted with scholarship on aidos. I’m surprised at you relying on an English “dictionary definition.” You must be aware that some Greek words don’t translate well. Far from importing our own sensibility into the text Paul and I are respecting the sensibilities inherent in the text and in ancient Greek culture more generally.

I haven’t read the article, but I don’t think the reflexive reading of the middle here is right. I think they’re inviting him to bathe (possibly/probably with them helping), not to wash himself .

I ended up going through all the instances of λούω after the discussion in last week’s thread, and the middle is used in this sense even when there is a ‘bath attendant’ doing the bathing later on in the scene (the scope of the English word bathe makes it difficult to be clear discussing this).

For instance, in Book 8 Alkinoos discusses Odysseus’ imminent bath with the middle (ὄφρα λοεσσάμενός 427), and Arete invites him/commands him to bathe using the middle infinitive (αὐτόδιον δ᾽ ἄρα μιν ταμίη λούσασθαι ἀνώγει / ἔς ῥ᾽ ἀσάμινθον βάνθ᾽ 449-50), but his actual bathing by the δμῳαὶ is active transitive (τὸν δ᾽ ἐπεὶ οὖν δμῳαὶ λοῦσαν 454).

The same sequence of middle intransitive (referring to the person having the bath) and active transitive (referring to the person attending the bath) can also be seen in Book 4, with Telemachus and Peisistratus going to bathe in the middle (ἔς ῥ᾽ ἀσαμίνθους βάντες ἐυξέστας λούσαντο 48) but being bathed active transitive in the next line (τοὺς δ᾽ ἐπεὶ οὖν δμῳαὶ λοῦσαν 49). This pattern is repeated in 17.87/88. In Book 23, there is a command to bathe in the middle (λούσασθε 131) which is answered in the action itself (οὖν λούσαντο 142), but given the two examples above I suspect this too means ‘have a bath, be bathed, get clean’ rather than ‘wash yourselves’, especially as in the same passage Odysseus gets bathed by Eurynome (154).

I have looked at “Aidos: The Psychology and Ethics of Honour and Shame in Ancient Greek Literature” Douglas L Carins 1993. He is not very helpful on 6.221-2 (p 125-6) where he simply elides many of the issues teased out by Jones. Clearly there is a sexual element here but why would Odysseus be ashamed or even embarrassed to be naked in front of slaves? Cairns has no solution.

Jones accepts that “λοῦσθαι at 216 cannot be forced of itself to bear the meaning “wash himself”. But λούομaι can (obviously) bear that meaning in Homer. At 23.131-2 Odysseus makes a clear distinction between what the men must do (λούσασθε) and what the slaves must do meanwhile (εἵμαθ᾿ ἑλέσθαι). Consequently, there can be no objection to translating 216 “they ordered him to wash himself” if there are other reasons for believing that this is what it must mean. I believe there are.”

Seneca, The point was there’s a difference between aidos and aischunh. You showed no awareness of that in your post.

Just why Od feels aidos (or just claims to feel aidos, if you prefer) is something we can speculate about, if we care to. I gave my view.
And of course it’s not a question of how he feels about being naked in front of slaves, but of how he feels (or purports to feel, if you insist) about being naked in front of Nausicaa’s amphipoloi (a word that certainly doesn’t mean slaves—but we’ve have enough of that) in his present condition. It’s situational.

@mwh

Forgive my ignorance αἰσχύνη is a word I am familiar with in Tragedy I didn’t realise it occurred in Homer. I will investigate further.

We will just have to agree to differ on slaves. But many scholars do regard amphipoloi as slaves.

Jones says at the conclusion of his article that the “real problem is not in the text but in the classicist’s nimia in minimis diligentia, and that the proposed solution is far too laboured for the context.” I think this thought has wide applicability.

A final word of clarification, and then I’m out.

αἰσχύνη the noun may not occur in Homer but the verb and plenty of cognates do (aischros and aischos among them), which should show you how the Homeric concept differs from aidos and cognates. I agree with the nimia in minimis diligentia dictum (as my own posts should show). Some things matter more than others.

Of course I agree that Homer’s amphipoloi would be slaves. I don’t know why you think I don’t. But I’d have expected you to respect what they’re called, and to distinguish their gender if nothing else.

Over to you and Sean.

ἦ γὰρ δηρὸν ἀπὸ χροός ἐστιν ἀλοιφή

It seemed to me that he was more ashamed by the built-up grime revealed by his nakedness than the nudity.

αἰδέομαι γὰρ γυμνοῦσθαι κούρῃσιν ἐυπλοκάμοισι μετελθών

It would be rather difficult to imagine Rhett Butler delivering this line to Scarlett’s house-slaves.