I have been learning Latin for the last 3 years, and I have finally achieved a nice range of fluency that allowed me even to compose some poetry. However, I didn’t start greek until almost 7 months ago, unfortunately, and I have frequently questioned myself about the best way or method to learn these languages.
In my opinion, the main problem on greek learning is the lack of graduated books covering everyday life vocabulary. People tend to focus too much on grammar, I mean, learning declension tables, trying to learn verbs memoriter and so on. For me that’s not the point. One should never start learning greek by reading classical authors, perhaps that would have been for me like trying to learn english reading, say, Shakespeare. Those were not books intended for language learning, but wise treatises on philosophy, history, whatever, to be read mainly by people who: (1) Could speak greek fluently because it was their mother tongue (2) They had learnt greek also by speaking with real greeks (for instance: cultivated romans) (3) Were cultivated people on those areas, that usually studied under rhetoricians, philosophers, etc.
So, I wouldn’t encourage people to start reading classical authors until they have achieved a certain fluency on grammar, and that can only be done by reading graduated texts which can cover different morphological and sintactical areas separately. For instance, one can know english grammar quite well (present infinitive 3rd person adds ‘‘s’’ or ‘‘es’’ to the root of the verb… let’s say) but if one doesn’t know vocabulary, all effort is worthless. One can know the uses of english verbs, but if you don’t know how to say ‘‘Help. Please’’ even that, you can be in trouble.
Now, I found about a month and a half ago a text which has been a tour de force for my language learning:
John Stuart Blackie, On Self-Culture, 4th ed. (Edinburgh: Edmonston and Douglas, 1874), pp. 32-36:
(1.) If possible always start with a good teacher. He will save you much time by clearing away difficulties that might otherwise discourage you, and preventing the formation of bad habits of enunciation, which must afterwards be unlearned.
(2.) The next step is to name aloud, in the language to be learned, every object which meets your eye, carefully excluding the intervention of the English: in other words, think and speak of the objects about you in the language you are learning from the very first hour of your teaching; and remember that the language belongs to the first place to your ear and to your tongue, not in your book merely and to your brain.
(3.) Commit to memory the simplest and most normal forms of the declension of nouns, such as the us and a declension in Latin, and the A declension in Sanscrit.
(4.) The moment you have learned the nominative and accusative cases of these nouns take the first person of the present indicative of any common verb, and pronounce aloud some short sentence according to the rules of syntax belonging to active verbs, as—ὁρῶ τὸν Ἥλιον, I see the sun.
(5.) Enlarge this practice by adding some epithet to the substantive, declined according to the same noun, as—ὁρῶ τὸν λαμπρὸν Ἥλιον, I see the bright sun.
(6.) Go on in this manner progressively, committing to memory the whole present indicative, past and future indicative, of simple verbs, always making short sentences with them, and some appropriate nouns, and always thinking directly in the foreign language, excluding the intrusion of the English. In this essential element of every rational system of linguistic training there is no real, but only an imaginary difficulty to contend with, and, in too many cases, the pertinacity of a perverse practice.
(7.) When the ear and tongue have acquired a fluent mastery of the simpler forms of nouns, verbs, and sentences, then, but not till then, should the scholar be led, by a graduated process, to the more difficult and complex forms.
(8.) Let nothing be learned from rules that is not immediately illustrated by practice; or rather, let the rules be educed from the practice of ear and tongue, and let them be as few and as comprehensive as possible.
(9.) Irregularities of various kinds are best learned by practice as they occur; but some anomalies, as in the conjugation of a few irregular verbs, are of such frequent occurrence, and are so necessary for progress, that they had better be learned specially by heart as soon as possible. Of this the verb to be, in almost all languages, is a familiar example.
(10.) Let some easy narrative be read, in the first place, or better, some familiar dialogue, as, in Greek, Xenophon’s Anabasis and Memorabilia, Cebetis Tabula, and Lucian’s Dialogues; but reading must never be allowed, as is so generally the case, to be practised as a substitute for thinking and speaking. To counteract this tendency, the best way is to take objects of natural history, or representations of interesting objects, and describe their parts aloud in simple sentences, without the intervention of the mother tongue.
(11.) Let all exercises of reading and describing be repeated again, and again, and again. No book fit to be read in the early stages of language-learning should be read only once.
(12.) Let your reading, if possible, be always in sympathy with your intellectual appetite. Let the matter of the work be interesting, and you will make double progress. To know some thing of the subject beforehand will be an immense help. For this reason, with Christians who know the Scriptures, as we do in Scotland, a translation of the Bible is always one of the best books to use in the acquisition of a foreign tongue.
(13.) As you read, note carefully the difference between the idioms of the strange language and those of the mother tongue; underscore these distinctly with pen or pencil, in some thoroughly idiomatic translation, and after a few days translate back into the original tongue what you have before you in the English form.
(14.) To methodise, and, if necessary, correct your observations, consult some systematic grammar so long as you may find it profitable. But the grammar should, as much as possible, follow the practice, not precede it.
(15.) Be not content with that mere methodical generalisation of the practice which you find in many grammars, but endeavour always to find the principle of the rule, whether belonging to universal or special grammar.
(16.) Study the theory of language, the organism of speech, and what is called comparative philology or Glossology. The principles there revealed will enable you to prosecute with a reasoning intelligence a study which would otherwise be in a great measure a laborious exercise of arbitrary memory.
(17.) Still, practice is the main thing; language must, in the first plaoe, be familiar; and this familiarity can be attained only by constant reading and constant conversation. Where a man has no person to speak to he may declaim to himself; but the ear and the tongue must be trained, not the eye merely and the understanding. In reading, a man must not confine himself to standard works. He must devour everything greedily that he can lay his hands on. He must not merely get up a book with accurate precision; that is all very well as a special task; but he must learn to live largely in the general element of the language; and minute accuracy in details is not to be sought before a fluent practical command of the general currency of the language has been attained. Shakspeare, for instance, ought to be read twenty times before a man begins to occupy himself with the various readings of the Shaksperian text, or the ingenious conjectures of his critics.
(18.) Composition, properly so called, is the culmination of the exercises of speaking and reading, translation and re-translation, which we have sketched. In this exercise the essential thing is to write from a model, not from dictionaries or phrase-books. Choose an author who is a pattern of a particular style—say Plato in philosophical dialogue, or Lucian in playful colloquy—steal his phrases, and do something of the same kind yourself, directly, without the intervention of the English. After you have acquired fluency in this way you may venture to put more of yourself into the style, and learn to write the foreign tongue as gracefully as Latin was written by Erasmus, Wyttenbach, or Ruhnken. Translation from English classics may also be practised, but not in the first place; the ear must be tuned by direct imitation of tbe foreign tongue, before the more difficult art of transference from the mother tongue can be attempted with success.
As I have said, people try to learn too much at once by reading those grammar books. They think composition is the goal when learning Greek or Latin. I think it’s actually the way.
In my opinion one of the best ways to learn is, based on the text supra:
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Find some graduated books and use at least two of them at once (Assimil, Athenaze, A Greek Boy at Home…)
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Read a little time everyday.
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Use flashcards (I have 2 separated groups, one for greek verbs, one for nouns, and so on) instead of vocabulary lists, once a day or once every two days…
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Write easy sentences like: I see the sun. I have no children (Οὐκ ἔχω τέκνα), I have a book…
5.When you master the main morphology points (number, gender, easy active present verbs, and contract verbs), keep going through the graduated series of texts, and make changes in your sentences whenever you find new grammar points (future, aorists, relative pronouns…) and changing the words of the sentences using new vocabulary. For example you can have writen: I have a book, [Βιβλίον ἔχω] and change it to: I will have a book [Βιβλίον ἕχω]. Or “I have a book which is on the table” [Ἔχω βιβλίον ὃ ἐπὶ τραπέζᾳ ἐστιν.] Then change the vocabulary mantaining the structure, suppose you now have some clothes… on a stool… or you HAD some books on a chair, and some below the chair…and so on.
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Translate from your book some sentences covering important aspects of grammar. After some time, get back to your translation, and turn it into greek.
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Also learn vocabulary of everyday life so you can have a journal or a scrapbook, and describe things…
Well, I’m running out of time, I hope someone can understand what I wrote in English.
Valete. Χαίρετε.
What I did was spend about two months reading a Greek grammar book, then immediately start reading Plato and Aristotle using Perseus as a dictionary. (There’s a great Iphone app).
If your interest is in reading Greek texts I would spend zero time on composition or memorizing vocabulary lists. That kind of thing might just burn you out and in any case is unnecessary.
I would also start with Aristotle rather than Plato for a number of reasons, unless you are not interested in either.
I don’t understand why people beat around the bush so much instead of just diving into the texts. That is assuming you have a genuine desire to read them. If you don’t you might get discouraged by the constant interruptions to look up vocabulary (which will be a lot faster with the Iphone app at hand).
Ok, I did get myself up to speed over the summer. I did take AG in college 15 years ago, so I had forgotten almost everything. I had taken a few not-so-serious runs at it in the past. So, I got serious this time. All I did was 1 and 2.
I cannot tell you that number 1 has a key point. At least two at once. I used books that favored connected reading to exposition on grammar. I did zero exercises. I read, and read, and read, and read. I had JACT’s Reading Greek, Athenaze and Safire’s Ancient Greek Alive. I made it about halfway through the first and very nearly all the way through the other two. Each book took a slightly different approach. When I felt I was nearing speed, I peeked into Roberts’ and Major’s Plato Transitional. Didn’t like it and dropped it (the material, not the approach). I’d guess I read north of 200 pages of connected Greek.
I got a copy of Steadman’s Herodotus Histories Book A and devoured it. It took a few dips into the book to find where I could pick up reading Herodotus. I was still reading my graded readers while I was trying to find my entry point to Herodotus. Once Herodotus clicked (Book 1, Chapter 86 if it makes any difference), I switched over to Herodotus. It took me a bit short of two months to pull the trick, but I did read book 1 of the Histories. I could not have done it without the vocabulary and notes on-page. Steadman probably gives a bit too much help, but this is probably better than suffering through endless graded readers. In any case, if you know what’s going on, skip the notes and vocab. In the early stages, I would check a translation to make sure I was on track and re-read portions.
As for point 2, I’d say I averaged over an hour a day at this. Every day. No breaks. I completely dropped the graded readers once I had the hang of Herodotus. I’ve since been fiddling with Plato’s Symposium. It’s ok, but not as compelling as Herodotus to my mind. I’ll finish it anyway. There are some grammar points I’m fuzzy on. There are some vocabulary items I should be better at. I figure they’ll come as long as I work at it.
I’d agree on composition. It has its place, but basic reading skills isn’t it.
Can I get an amen? And if you don’t like the dictionary (which I don’t for 99% of my purposes), find a text that has the vocabulary on page. Nothing teaches reading AG like reading AG. I won’t say that my method is the only way at it, but it worked for me. I’m not the expert of experts, but I can do what I set out to do.
I want to thank cb (Chad?) for his detailed, thoughtful post. It is the most helpful thing I have run across in my five years of independent Greek study.
Whether one uses his ten categories or some other system is somewhat irrelevant. The key thing is to focus on why one encounters a “stall.” What is the general rule, principle, word-building concept, or whatever that is causing the stall? That is the issue and that is what to focus on. It bears repeating that complete mastery of Chad’s ten categories is hypothetical or aspirational.
I bought almost all the linked resources. (There was one dead link.) I found Tiarks’ verb book and Adams preposition book to be especially useful. (Adams is a delightful, easy read, bedtime reading, if you will.) Sidgwick also looks good, but will require careful attention. Dover’s word order book was beyond me. Another Greek student recommended F.W. Farrar’s A Brief Greek Syntax and Hints on Greek Accidence, another typically Victorian, judgmental approach. I love it.
I have more thoughts, but as a newbie, I better let it go at that, for now.
In addition to flashcards, I memorize short stories from easy readers. I am building up a vocabulary while seeing all the words in context, and can recall unusual usages from simple sentences more easily. It’s the only way I can learn how to use prepositions properly – the dictionary definitions just don’t stick. Being able to recite a Greek story from memory is a cool dinner trick, too.
I have a Classics minor and I had two years of Attic Greek language from San Diego State University. I love continuing to learn more Greek and I do it on my own. Actually, if a class was available near to me ( I live in Germany), I’d enroll in it. Regarding those below who want to read the likes of Aristotle, this is advanced reading as are Plato and the tragedians. We read Xenophan’s Anabasis my second year in a good edition by Mather & Hewitt. It has lots of good explanations for the beginner. See Chad’s lengthy advice below for his excellent feedback for an assortment of questions. I thoroughly agree that the New Testament in koine is much simpler than 5th and 4th century B.C. Attic Greek. If one learns Attic, the N.T. seems easy. Koine has some different constructions that are easy to adapt to and, I think, the N.T. has about 80-100 new vocabulary words. I still consider myself an advanced beginner and for the question asked below, there are a number of good beginner Attic Greek books available. Myself, I have 5-6 intro books; each has its own special sections that explains questions that arise when I am studying Attic. I also have several other books to aid my efforts, e.g., identify verb forms, Liddell & Scott’s lexicon, Smythe’s book (I seldom use it, but it has interesting Greek language background material and other explanations, etc. For a short introductory book that’s easy to read, covers most main points of Attic, and good for reference, I have Chase & Phillips “A New Introduction to Greek”, 3rd edition, 1961. My professor bought them for his students who were interested in purchasing one from him. I’ve had mine for years and I constantly use it for reference. It’s just one of the 5-6 mentioned above. Hope this information helps those people interested in learning Greek.
Dear Chad,
I am a new member of Textkit and I have just recently started to learn ancient Greek. I found the forum a few days ago and I have fully read many topics on methods to that end. I have started to design a method for me, based on the guiding and useful comments of members –among them, yours also. I would like to ask you a question or two, and I would be more than happy to read your response; but only if you ‘ve got the time to do so, of course.
On another post of yours, I pretty much liked your advice on starting with a non-literary text, rather with something by Euclides, for example. Would you suggest Hippocrates also for start? (As far as ranking difficulty of authors, I was surprised that you didn’t mention Xenophon or Herodotus).
I did found all the books you suggested. The only one I couldn’t found (cause of a dead link) was your own “annotations to iambic composition exercises here […] : http://mhninaeide.webs.com/grkiambiccomp-23-apr-06.pdf”. Would you be kind enough to share your annotations once more? If there are reasons that you’d prefer not to, it’s totally understandable, of course.
Thank you very much!
Hi, and welcome to Greek!
If you’re just starting out, your best bet is to get a good textbook under your belt first. The thread above was focusing on how to get comfortable reading from there.
On the authors listed, I simply went off those listed in the original post of this thread. On their relative difficulty, see the beginning of the thread: as I noted, ranking difficulty is partly a function of your own background knowledge. I came to classics after having taken degrees in law and philosophy, and so texts like Plato’s dialogues were a little less alien to me than, say, the choral passages of Aeschylus (they hurt my head then, and they hurt my head now). Plato’s works have become both easier and harder to read since then: I can read them quite comfortably (purely a function of spending a lot of time with them), but continue to discover new things (my personal notes on Plato’s Greek now run to 7 volumes…).
On my (very old) iambic composition notes, they’ve been kept online at another site: http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/GrkIambicComp-23-Apr-06.pdf. However, they’d be overkill when starting out in Greek.
As a last point, I’d definitely update some of the recommendations I made back then: e.g. the treatment of particles in the Cambridge grammar of classical Greek is better than anything in previous grammars etc., although still is no replacement for Denniston and the many author-specific studies on particles, which are absolutely critical to getting your head around these words (once you have your head around the verbs and the particles, you’ve at least got the right framework for understanding a clause).
Cheers, Chad
Dear Chad,
Sincerely, I thank you very much for your response! I really appreciated that you shared your Notes and, of course, your suggestion on the Cambridge grammar, which I searched for and I have it now on my computer! At some point, I will buy a copy of Denniston and of LSJ, as well as of Kühner/Gerth (my German are a bit rusty, but I won’t have a hard time refreshing it, plus my wife is a German teacher and translator, so I’ll have for free all the help I may need ). Bortone’s [2010] “Greek Prepositions” I found very interesting and might also be a future buy.
Textbooks (as that of Hansen & Quinn, I take it) are directed, if I am not mistaken, to those who want to learn AG as a foreign language. I am not sure that this would help me, since I am Greek. What do you think? I started private lessons with a (good) philologist; who also knows his Latin, German and French (no need to mention English, of course).
Yes, my degrees are also in Philosophy (BA, MA) and have read all of Plato’s dialogues -some of them many, many times. My thesis even was on Plato; so I have quite an acquaintance with him. 
But while Plato seems quite a matching choice for me, I also really wanted to start reading Hippocrates and I was wondering whether he -like Euclides- meets your reasonable criterion of starting with more of technical texts, rather than with literature.
Anyway, I thank you again for all your guiding help and suggestions!
Greetings from Greece,
Γεια και χαρά!
Hi Phaedo! I’m out of my depth in advising a Greek how to learn ancient, and on Hippocrates (I had in mind the mathematicians): hopefully others here can help!
If you have come from a background in Plato however, he would be a good target: his Greek (although not quite as ‘pure Attic’ as the orators) is as good a reason as any for learning Greek!
Cheers, Chad
[ my bolds ]
This thread is fascinating and helpful for a newcomer, thanks.
For me, what makes sense is the idea of jumping in to read a Greek text you already have an interest in and know the background to.
So, having been ‘sold’ on Steadman (above), I intend to read his commentary of Plato’s Symposium.
It’s wonderful that Geoffrey Steadman’s site contains so many free digital files and core vocabulary pdf’s. How generous.
OK, so the reading is ‘intermediate’ and I’m only a beginner but I reckon it’s worth trying out. What do you think - too much already ?
Of course, another learning method is to listen. I’ve already downloaded Plato’s Symposium from Librivox. If nothing else it helps me to sleep at night.
However, there’s no Greek version as far as I can tell.
I also like to read the text as I listen.
However, it’s not always easy to find matching translations.
Any ideas ? Help ?
If you want to listen to the Greek while you read Plato, Julius Tomin has audio files for Socrates Apology, Crito, Meno and Phaedo. Geoffrey Steadman has commentaries for all of them. Tomin’s site is http://www.juliustomin.org/greekreadaloud/plato.html
Mark
Thanks for the link, Mark.
I read Tomin’s Note on Pronunciation. Although admiring Jowett, he seems critical of his translation.
Enjoyed reading his Introduction. His explanation of what occupies his mind…when reading and listening. Seems to want to immerse himself in the conversation between the characters, Socrates etc., rather than dwell too much on Plato and various interpretations.
I think I will enjoy listening but need to find out where the actual text is.
Perhaps it’s there and I’ve missed it !
Re Steadman’s commentaries, I’ve downloaded some from his website. Would be wonderful if he could incorporate audio.
There has to be a niche market for a YouTube presentation:
An enactment of Plato’s Symposium with subtitles !
Thanks, Mark and others, for all your help.
Re my search for matching text and audio - εὓρηκα
Xenophon’s Anabasis - Greek edition by E.C. Marchant.
Steadman (free pdf)and Librivox (reader: bedwere)
https://geoffreysteadman.com/xenophon-anabasis-i/
https://librivox.org/anabasis-by-xenophon/
( a link at librivox for the text takes you to:
https://archive.org/details/operaomniarecogn03xenouoft )
[The Gutenberg English translation is by H. G. Dakyns.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1170/1170-h/1170-h.htm#link2H_4_0003 ]
If bedwere is here and taking requests for a future project:
Plato’s Symposium, please 
Reading through some of the threads, there seems to be a demand…
This is all new to me, so forgive me if it’s all been said and found before.
In AG, as in Latin, and as in literary French, I find it more pleasurable to try to read a sentence than to try to memorize a paradigm.
So, I spend much more time on the sentences. Some time ago, I tried Plato’s Apology of Socrates, and finding it too hard for me, I fell back to the Greek New Testament to regroup my forces. The advantage of the Greek NT is the existence of NT Greek lexicons that parse every single word in the NT. After working my way through the gospel of John and the Acts, I returned to Plato, which is going much better.
I use the IOS app Attikos, which is almost as helpful as a NT lexicon.
I write out the sentence by hand, in a spiral notebook. In my notebook, a line looks something like this:
A Greek Phrase [ a blank space] the English or Translationese equivalent
Another Greek Phrase [ another blank space ] Another English . . . etc.
I don’t guess word meanings; I look’m up. For nouns, I do guess the case, number, and gender (mutatis mutandis, I also guess for the other parts of speech). If I get it wrong, then I find the lemma, and seek a paradigm for memory refreshment. Recently, I bungled on a noun with an eta ending, guessing dative singular. When I couldn’t devise a good meaning, I found the lemma, and reviewed the noun paradigm. Well neuter nouns exist with eta endings in the nominative and accusative plural–I had forgotten that. That is consistent with my memorizing efforts: no matter how much I drill, I quickly forget much of what I hoped to inscribe in memory. Most days I do some memory work, but no longer expect to have all the forms memorized. I use Mastronarde’s web page for drill. For self-quizzing, I use the iOS LIberation Philology app.
I also strive to identify phrase breaks in a sentence, even before I look up the words.
When unsure of a sentence, I read the English translation, for meaning, not for grammar, and then go over the sentence again. With the English meaning in mind, I nearly always can see the Greek grammar. Now I have another hard place, worth study.
So, I keep plugging away. Maybe I will live long enough to be able to “just read” something in ancient Greek.
I didn’t know anything about Tomin nor his work. Thank you very much!
I did that in grad school. The famous first paragraph took me a 90 minute car ride. It got harder the farther in. Now I think I should have started from the end.
I think memorization and the reading of books we already know in another language are both good ideas from former ages we would be well to emulate. For me, having been an altar boy, and attending mass for 20 years, the Greek New Testament was very easy. Good luck!
Hi cb,
Similar to Steadman’s editions are those by Faenum Publishing. They have a reader’s edition of Hippocrates’ On Airs, Waters and Places with running notes on vocab and grammar on each page. Rated as intermediate. They publish both a paperback edition and also have a free digital edition (PDF download). Link:
http://www.faenumpublishing.com/hippocrates-on-airs-waters-and-places.html
Hope this helps!