Medea

Greek Learning Greek
1

Lines 28-33

… ὡς δὲ πέτρος ἢ θαλάσσιος
κλύδων ἀκούει νουθετουμένη φίλων,
ἢν μή ποτε στρέψασα πάλλευκον δέρην
αὐτὴ πρὸς αὑτὴν πατέρ’ ἀποιμώξηι φίλον
καὶ γαῖαν οἴκους θ’, οὓς προδοῦσ’ ἀφίκετο
μετ’ ἀνδρὸς ὅς σφε νῦν ἀτιμάσας ἔχει.

As a rock or sea-wave she hears her friends, being rebuked, unless sometimes having turned her all-white neck, she cries out to herself over her beloved father and land and home (pl. indicates rooms?), which she deserted to go [arrive] with the man who now has permanently dishonored her.

I think that “she cries out to herself” captures αὐτὴ πρὸς αὑτὴν. But is αὐτὴ meant to be emphasis or something else?

2

Lines 54-55

χρηστοῖσι δούλοις ξυμφορὰ τὰ δεσποτῶν
κακῶς πίτνοντα καὶ φρενῶν ἀνθάπτεται.

πίτνω is πίπτω.

For good slaves, the circumstances of their masters going badly also grab take them by the phrenes.

I wasn’t sure about “for good slaves,” signaled only by the dative here.

3

χρηστοῖσι δούλοις ξυμφορὰ [εστι] τὰ δεσποτῶν κακῶς πίτνοντα – See LSJ πίπτω B.V:

V. of the dice, τὰ δεσποτῶν εὖ πεσόντα θήσομαι I shall count my master’s lucky throws my own, A.Ag.32; “ἀεὶ γὰρ εὖ πίπτουσιν οἱ Διὸς κύβοι” S. Fr.895; “ὥσπερ οἱ κύβοι: οὐ ταὔτ᾽ ἀεὶ πίπτουσιν” Alex.34; ὥσπερ ἐν πτώσει κύβων πρὸς τὰ πεπτωκότα τίθεσθαι τὰ πράγματα according to the throws, Pl.R.604c ; ὄνασθαι πρὸς τὰ νῦν π. E.Hipp.718; πρὸς τὸ πῖπτον as matters fall out, Id.El.639 ; of tossing up with oystershells, “κἂν μὲν πίπτῃσι τὰ λεύκ᾽ ἐπάνω” Pl.Com.153.5 ; of lots, ὁ κλῆρος π. τινί or παρά τινα, Pl.R.619e, 617e; “ἐπί τινα” Act.Ap.1.26: Astrol., π. καλῶς ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης Vett. Val.7.15

4

Mastronarde mentioned that “the metaphor is from dice games” in the note (but no quotations). Your citation of the LSJ section reminds me that Fraenkel has a long section on A.Ag.32.

Mastronarde glossed “when they turn out bad” or “when they suffer reversals,” but I thought (maybe incorrectly) that the present tense might mean that the metaphor was of a game still on-going, but badly.

5

Not sure what else it would be. αὐτός in the nominative by itself is nearly always emphasis.

6

αὐτὴ πρὸς αὑτὴν

οἴκους

Don’t forget that this is poetry.

See LSJ :

pl. οἶκοι freq., = a single house,

7

αὐτὴ πρὸς αὑτὴν Yes lit. “herself to herself.” The αὐτὴ is very weak but idiomatic with prepositional αὑτ-/ἑαυτ-.
ἀποιμώξηι implies cries of οἴμοι of course, in lament.

8

What does “very weak” mean?

9

It means it doesn’t have its full force. It dances attendance on προς αὑτην, and wouldn’t be there at all if it weren’t for that.

ἀφίκετο. arrived i.e. here in Corinth.

10

{Πα.} ἤκουσά του λέγοντος, οὐ δοκῶν κλύειν,
πεσσοὺς προσελθών, ἔνθα δὴ παλαίτεροι
θάσσουσι, σεμνὸν ἀμφὶ Πειρήνης ὕδωρ,
ὡς τούσδε παῖδας γῆς ἐλᾶν Κορινθίας
σὺν μητρὶ μέλλοι τῆσδε κοίρανος χθονὸς
Κρέων. ὁ μέντοι μῦθος εἰ σαφὴς ὅδε
οὐκ οἶδα· βουλοίμην δ’ ἂν οὐκ εἶναι τόδε.

I heard him speaking, [myself] not appearing to be paying attention, [myself] having visited the place for draughts, in fact there the older men lounge, about the sacred water of Peirene, [he was saying] that Creon ruler of this land meant to drive these children from Corinth with their mother. But the story, if it’s true, I don’t know. I would hope these things not be.

σεμνὸν ἀμφὶ Πειρήνης ὕδωρ – I was confused by this until I realized that ἀμφί could go with σεμνὸν ὕδωρ.
ἔνθα δὴ – Is this usually temporal?
οὐκ εἶναι – If it’s not just there to fit the metre, Mastronarde mentions this might be a “unitary concept.” I think that I recall seeing something to that effect in Andocides.

There was a note on παλαίτεροι that mentioned that the manuscripts all have παλαίτατοι, but see Chr. pat. 1181. I looked the reference up, because I thought that παλαίτατοι seemed just fine, and that there was hardly a difference between the two. But after some searching I discovered the wonderful Christus patiens.

ΙΩΣΗΦ
Ἤκουσά του λέγοντος, οὐ δοκῶν κλύειν,
θώκους προσελθών, ἔνθα δὴ παλαίτεροι
θάσσουσι, σεμνὰν ἀμφὶ Σαλομὼν στοάν,
ὡς τόνδε νεκρὸν οὐκ ἐᾷ πρεσβυτέρων
ὄχλος, προσιὼν τῆσδε κοιράνῳ χθονός,
θάπτειν. Ὁ μέντοι μῦθος εἰ σαφὴς ὅδε,
οὐκ οἶδα, βουλοίμην δ’ ἂν οὐκ εἶναι τάδε.
Ἐμοὶ γὰρ αὐτὸν ἐξέδωκεν ὡς φίλῳ,
αὐτὸν δυσωπήσαντι λαβεῖν τὸν νέκυν.

Apparently there is also a Homerocentones. Pierson seems to have been the first to suggest παλαίτεροι in his Verisimilia (Piersoni Verisimilia). I couldn’t find a PDF of it anywhere. Apparently another Pierson wrote a more famous Verisimilia about the New Testament in 1886, suggesting that none of the letters of Paul are genuine, and were in fact written by a bishop. But that’s probably enough distraction.

11

{Τρ.} ὦ τέκν’, ἀκούεθ’ οἷος εἰς ὑμᾶς πατήρ;
ὄλοιτο μὲν μή· δεσπότης γάρ ἐστ’ ἐμός·
ἀτὰρ κακός γ’ ὢν ἐς φίλους ἁλίσκεται.

Oh children, you hear how your father is to you?
I would not have him destroyed, for he is my master,
But he is caught being evil to his dear ones.

12

ἤκουσά του λέγοντος. Not “I heard him speaking” (αυτου): someone (του enclitic = τινός)

Homeric centos are ten a penny. The curiosity that is the Christus Patiens is not quite a cento but minimally adapts trimeters from a number of Euripides’ tragedies to the Passion story, and can occasionally enable better readings to be restored to Euripides’ text. (It’s particularly useful for the Bacchae, in the lacuna where the pieces of Pentheus’ dismembered body are being put together, the compositio membrorum.)
I always assumed cento was cognate with centum (100), but apparently not.
παλαιοτεροι is much better than the superlative, cf. oι νεωτεροι.

Nothing unusual about the word order of σεμνὸν ἀμφὶ Πειρήνης ὕδωρ. Less likely in prose though (but ἀμφὶ Πειρήνης ὕδωρ wd be normal enough in prose, apart from articles).

ἔνθα δὴ – No not usually temporal, usually local, as here. But here “where” rather than “there.” The construction is continuous, ἤκουσά του λέγοντος … ως …, I overheard someone saying that … Perhaps you realized that.

οὐκ εἶναι – “I hope it’s not the case.” “is not” rather than “not be”, which μη would suit better. It’s true that μη wd be more usual.

ὦ τέκν’, ἀκούεθ’ οἷος εἰς ὑμᾶς πατήρ; You hear what sort (of father) your father (is) to you?

ὄλοιτο μὲν μή. She curses him (ολοιτο) but immediately backs off from it (μεν μη).

—On that αυτη προς αὑτην cf. 51 αὐτη θρεομενη σεαυτῃ κακα, where again the presence of the intensive αυτη is conditioned by the reflexive.

13

From the scholia:

ἰώ μοί μοι: ἀσύμφωνα ταῦτ’ ἐστὶ τοῖς ὑπὸ τῆς πρεσβύτιδος εἰρημένοις ὅτι ἄφωνος κάθηται. καὶ ἐν αὐτῷ δὲ τῷ προλόγῳ “Μήδεια δ’ ἡ δύστηνος ἠτιμασμένη βοᾷ μὲν ὅρκους” καὶ τὰ ἑξῆς. εἶτα μετ’ ὀλίγα “κεῖται δ’ ἄσιτος, σῶμ’ ὑφεῖσ’ ἀλγηδόνι, οὔτ’ ὄμμ’ ἐπαίρουσ’ οὔτ’ ἀπαλλάσσουσα γῆς πρόσωπον.” ταῦτα δὲ λέγει ἔνδοθεν, καὶ οὐκ ἐν φανερῷ. ἡ δὲ φωνὴ μόνη ἐξάκουστος γίνεται.

Woe, woe to me: This is unharmonious with the words of the old lady that she sits mute. Even in the prologue itself, “dishonored, unhappy Medea cries oaths” and the following. A little after that “she sits without eating, having passively submitted her body to pains, not raising her eyes, nor freeing her face from the earth.” She speaks these words from inside [the skene], and not in the open. Only her voice is audible.

14

του = τινος

θάσσουσι – “frequent”, “gather”

οὐ δοκῶν κλύειν – just “not appearing to hear”, i.e., eavesdropping

προσελθών – “when/as I approached”

ἔνθα – relative adverb of place here, “where”

δὴ – here, “of course”, maybe, not “in fact”

παλαίτεροι may once have been a variant reading in the Medea text (the date and provenance of Chr. Pat. is uncertain), or else it should be regarded as a happy conjecture. It’s also adopted by Diggle and Kovacs. It’s almost certainly right, I think. παλαίτατοι seems odd here because there’s no reason here to stress that the “oldest” men gather at the boards, and “older men” seems just right. This Pierson was an 18th century scholar.

Edit: Sorry, I didn’t see mwh’s post above before I posted this.

15

cento, ōnis, m. [κέντρων], a garment of several bits or pieces sewed together, a rag-covering, patchwork, etc., Cato ap. Fest. s. v. prohibere, p. 234 Müll.; id. R. R. 2, 3; 10, 5; Lucil. ap. Non. p. 176, 1; Sisenn. ib. p. 91, 27; Caes. B. C. 2, 9; 3, 44 fin.; Dig. 33, 7, 12.—2. Esp., a cap worn under the helmet, Amm. 19, 8, 8.—B. Prov.: centones sarcire alicui, to impose upon by false-hoods, Plaut. Ep. 3, 4, 19.—II. The title of a poem made up of various verses of another poem, a cento; so the Cento Nuptialis of Ausonius (the thirteenth of his Idyls), etc., Isid. Orig. 1, 38, 25; Tert. Praescr. 39.

Lewis, C. T., & Short, C. (1891). Harpers’ Latin Dictionary (p. 316). New York; Oxford: Harper & Brothers; Clarendon Press.

κεντρων…piece of patch-work, rag, Bito 55.4, Heras ap.Gal.13.1044, Sch.Ar.Nu.449; perh. pen-wiper, POxy.326 (i A.D.): hence, copy of verses made up of scraps from other authors, Eust.1099.51, 1308 fin.

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 939). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

16

I see, sort of like saying that in the sentence “I’m going to watch the president give his speech tomorrow” the word “the” wouldn’t be there at all if it weren’t for the word “president.” I know I’m being a bit picky, but I find terminology such as “weak” or “full force” less than helpful in understanding the construction. Better I think to say that the the pronoun is called for by that construction, perhaps to give added emphasis in the context.

17

Pok 567:

kenth(o)- > ,Lumpen, Lappen‘; auch > ket(h)-> ?
Ai. > kanthā > ,geflicktes Kleid‘; arm. > k‘ot‘anak > ,Kleid, Decke‘;
gr. κέντρων ,Rock aus Lumpen, Flickpoem‘ ist Bedeutungslehnw. aus dem Lat.;
lat. > centō > ,aus Lappen zusammengenähtes Kleid oder Decker, Flickwerk‘;
ohne Nasal ahd. > hadara > f. ,Lappen, Lumpen‘ (*> haþrō> , idg. *> kotrā> ), nhd. > Hadern> ; dazu mit > l> -Ableitung mhd. > Hadel> , ablaut. nhd. dial. > Hudel> , davon > hudeln > ,schmieren‘.

The last Germanic words here are doubtful in my opinion.

18

I’m sorry I mentioned my old misapprehension about “cento”! It’s taken us far from the Medea.

And Barry, I’m sorry you found my reply to your question “less than helpful.” It happens. But I think you missed the point, and your amusing analogy with English “the” does not hold, for that, unlike αυτη, is not an independent word. I would not end a sentence with the. :slight_smile:

You could start a new thread if you want to discuss the idiom further.

19

…ἀλλὰ φυλάσσεσθ’
ἄγριον ἦθος στυγεράν τε φύσιν
φρενὸς αὐθαδοῦς.

But beware the wild character and hateful nature of her self-willed mind.

Assuming that I’ve got this right (and the LSJ seems to confirm my taking φύσιν with
φρενὸς, glossing “of the mind, one’s nature, character”) should ἦθος and φύσιν make me think that this is also (or primarily) a comment about what sort of person Medea is, rather than her particular attitude after hearing bad news?

20

No, and of course the vast majority of your comments are very helpful (really). My point is simply that, idiom or otherwise, the use of the pronoun is required by the context and the speakers intent, and perhaps would sound as awkward to a native speaker left out as if we left out “the” in my amusing comparison.