I am working my way through Roma Aeterna and thought I’d have a look at the original in Ab urba condita. I’m really struggling to understand the following passage:
crescebat interim urbs munitionibus alia atque alia adpetendo loca, cum in spem magis futurae multitudinis quam ad id quod tum hominum erat munirent.
I was completely flummoxed by adpetendo until I found appeto in the dictionary. Imagine my delight when I even found munitionibus loca “taking in”. So, I have “Meanwhile the city grew by taking in places here and there within the ramparts as they fortified, more in the hope of a greater number of inhabitants in the future than that there was at that time.” I think hominum must depend on multitudo. I’m really just guessing here because I don’t know what to do with ad id quod. Wait a minute. Not quite ready to throw in the towel. Maybe it means something like “in respect to that which…” (i.e., the population at that time). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
A few points. Crescebat is imperfect so “meanwhile the city was growing” alia atque alia (loca) not here and there but one place after another.
adpetendo, This line is mentioned in L&S where it is glossed as “by continually advancing farther” However you translate it do you recognise the form? ap → ad is one of a number of changes in the prefix one needs to keep an eye out for.
“more in the hope of a greater number of inhabitants” Greater number isn’t in the Latin although that is the sense. “more in he expectation of a future population than..”
ad id quod tum hominum erat. Doesn’t the genitive hominum depend on “ad id quod” “to that which” ie “the number of”. I think ad id quod must refer back to the whole phrase “in spem magis futurae multitudinis”. Ad can be “That in respect of or in regard to which a thing avails, happens, or is true or important, with regard to, in respect of, in relation to, as to, to, in.” L&S
Just some thoughts. There is a reason that Ørberg simplified this passage.
Thank you very much. That is very helpful. I did not see that gloss for appeto because I was only looking in my hardcopy of Lewis’s Elementary Dictionary. I just now found it in the online version of L&S. All I could get for ala…ala was the distributive sense “some…others” in L&S II B. How did you get the idea of succession “one place after another”? At this point in my study of Latin, I am limited to what I can find in the dictionaries. I do not yet have enough reading experience to make deductions.
cum . . . munirent – this is a unit: “since [cum + subjunctive is circumstantial, not temporal] they were fortifying more in the hope of a large population [multitudinis] in the furure than in proportion to [ad] that which was then [the number] of people.” hominum is partitive genitive, depending on id, or, if you like, id quod.
“All I could get for ala…ala was the distributive sense “some…others” in L&S II B”
Look at:
L&S II D Alius atque alius or alius aliusque, the one and the other; now this, now that;
Crescebat gives the idea that the city is gradually increasing in size and so thinking in terms of “now this now that” we have the idea of places being absorbed one after the other. Here and there to me sounded a bit more haphazard.
II C gives "Alius ex alio, super alium, post alium, one after another; " which is a more specific formulation and you may think Livy should have said that if he meant it. If you do then “alia atque alia …loca” could be translated as “one place and then another”.
The idea to be translated is one of gradual expansion absorbing places in the process. Valerie Warrior in her very readable translation writes: “meanwhile the city was growing as the Romans included one area after another within the city’s defences.”
With an author as complex as Livy its best to look at the large L&S on line. I can barely read my hard copy. OLD is excellent too. If I have time I will look there.
Good idea to compare simplified version with original!
There’s no longer any point in using the Elementary L&S now that the full version is at your fingertips on line. The OLD is better, of course, but it’s too unwieldy to use on a regular basis if you’re as lazy as I am.
And, by the way, if you haven’t found it yet, the Logeion website has a much easier and more reliable on-line version of L&S than the old Perseus version. You can also use it for Greek LSJ,
https://logeion.uchicago.edu/lexidium
Bill thanks for your excellent suggestions. I don’t know why I didnt see it before I posted my second contributions. Your explanation about ad is very helpful.
Seneca, I think we cross-posted, and then I made some revisions.
Thank you, once again, my friends, for your excellent contributions.