L1 v L2 dictionaries plus value of images in Greek leaning

[daivid]

We got so far off the original theme of the topic that a new thread seemed best.

@Markos

@daivid

What I have read about the use of monolingual dictionaries for modern languages suggests that the evidence for their value as very dubious. I imagine there must be some properly conducted research into their value. It would be a good idea to try and track it down.

This snippet would appear to support your point.

http://books.google.com/books?id=4o9NfyvsV7IC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=are+monolingual+dictionaries+useful+for+SLA?&source=bl&ots=lpOyfqP0XR&sig=qR81LPtASKUC5ITvst3R90QQM_c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4uTnUp6GDMG4yQGFl4CYDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Thanks for that link which raises a lot of interesting points on other things than dictionaries.

@Markos

A new term here I learned, “bilingualised.” “A bilingualised dictionary is a monolingual dictionary with L1 translations included.” This would defeat the purpose Greek immersion, but would make the lexicon less frustrating for you.

I too have not met the term bilingualised. It may defeat the aim of to total immersion but if a learner first tries the L2 (ie Greek) definition and only uses the L1 (in our case English) definition as a fall back it will at least be more immersive.

@Markos

Outside of defenders of Grammar-Translation, who see no problem with the almost exclusive use of L1, the rest of us agree that L1 is a necessary evil. The question is, how evil, and how necessary?

Of course one way of avoiding dictionaries is texts with restricted vocabulary and where any less usual words are high frequency. There is a big difference between using L2 to define a word and the much more natural process when a new word is encountered in several slightly different contexts so enabling you to deduce the word.

@Markos

And imagine the knots that you will tie yourself into trying to define σκίουρος when one word, squirrel, will convey the meaning quickly and precisely.

I for my part would solve this problem with a picture of the ζῷον in question.

Umm, that would work.

When learning SerboCroat I did have a picture dictionary. It would have a page on domestic animals followed bv a page on wild animals, that sort of thing. It was not the sort of thing that you could use to look up a specific unknown word. That sort of thing may be more useful if you know you are going to talk/write on a theme. We might look at doing one for our weather thread.

@Markos

This is not an issue about the value of communicative use of Ancient Greek.

Agreed. Support (or criticism) of communicative use and monolingual resources do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, but they tend, I think, to follow hard upon.

Communicative methods also overlap with production. Translation from L1 to L2 does have the advantage for someone studying on their own that they can check their own work. It also allows sufficient focus on specific forms to allow those to be well learned.
Free composition (including conversations) can only have those advantages if you have another human being able to point out mistakes.

[Σαυλος]

To me, these L2 lateral translations Mark is doing far outstrip an L2-L2 dictionary in value for learners.

@daivid

Of course one way of avoiding dictionaries is texts with restricted vocabulary and where any less usual words are high frequency. There is a big difference between using L2 to define a word and the much more natural process when a new word is encountered in several slightly different contexts so enabling you to deduce the word.

This is what has my attention. I hope I can stick to this project of producing many little stories with limited vocabulary (but with unrestricted structure). I’ve chosen my list of words (395). My clever wife is working on writing (in English) a set of longer stories which, in sum, would use all the words. I’m going to try to spin off many tiny stories with very small vocabulary sets.