Almost all verbs I’ve been learning this far are highly regular so the learning strategy is easy: learn the principal parts of the verb, learn the verb endings, combine (or decompose).
I’m stumbling a bit with 1/2/3 person singular imperfect indicative active δίδωμι, as well as 2/3 person singular imperfect indicative active of τίθημι. In attic at least, the stem in these cases include a thematic vowel and contract in various ways which is contrary to the simple strategy in the paragraph above. So the imperfect indicative is a special case not following the normal rules of short-grade/long-grade stem + ending.
What to do? Are there whole classes of verbs similar to δίδωμι / τίθημι that behave similarly (there are grammatical rules governing these cases) or are these irregularities specific to individual verbs and best memorized on a case by case basis?
Generalizing the question a bit: where you do think it’s better, as a learning strategy, with “dumb memorization of all instances” (one extreme) or the more normal grammar/translation method of “learn generic grammatical rules and apply to a smaller memorized corpus”?
Something I struggle with is that (and maybe this is silly): I simply do not know how many verbs there are in Ancient Greek that’s worth learning early for decent fluency (compared to verbs you pick up as you go later). Obviously the set of verbs is finite and smaller than nouns, and if the set is small enough it’s probably worthwhile to just memorize all of them. But my gut feeling is the set is large enough that’s not a good learning strategy.
So adding: What’s a good quantifiable goal? Obviously a question without a right answer, but roughlty speaking how many words (and verbs, specifically) “should” be learned for various degrees of fluency?
Hi Björn,
For some reason this post has gone unanswered, so I’ll attempt to give some help and at the very least my response will bump it back up to the top!
I know you have the CGCG and Dickey’s composition book, so my first suggestion would be to read up on Athematic Presents in Chap. 12 of the CGCG starting at 12.33, if you haven’t already done so. Smyth Section 746 also addresses thematic forms in certain -μι verbs. As far as memorisation is concerned, all I can say is ἴστημι, τίθημι, ἵημι, and δίδωμι occur very frequently either compounded or not throughout Greek Literature and so far every textbook I’ve seen has lessons devoted to them. One of the other posters will know this for sure, but I’ll venture that the reason they’re included as paradigms in every textbook and grammar is because they have variant stems (στη/στα, θη/θε, η/ε, δω/δο -notice the long and short variation) which influences how they’re inflected. As far as being able to recite all the forms from rote memory, I agree that’s less effective than understanding how a particular verb is formed. Once you know that, you can reproduce the paradigm or a synopsis by applying the rules or at least remembering how each one is different.
Here I think Dickey’s list of irregular verbs in the Principal Parts section starting at page 257 is a good list to start with.
Personally, though I wouldn’t worry about tackling that until you’ve finished Hansen & Quinn. As far as coming up with a number of words to be memorised to achieve fluency, I can’t really give you a number. I know in modern languages quite often we quantify vocabulary knowledge to determine fluency. I’m not sure how well that practice can be applied to ancient languages. We talked about this in another post not too long ago, where we discussed what fluency means. I think in the case of the classical languages it depends on what your goals are: if you’re learning the language primarily for reading, you could probably get by with an initially smaller vocabulary which you expand by reading or if you want to compose in the language or try to speak it, then having a larger base vocabulary may be necessary.
Again, Björn, these are just my thoughts on your question based on my own observations and experiences. Hopefully some of the folks with more formal training or teaching experience will weigh in.
That’s helpful advice from Aetos. Just a few general comments on your queries.
The good thing is that there are only so many -μι verbs used in Attic. The bad thing—or the interesting thing—is that they are all irregular in one way or another.
There’s no simple solution. You might find a two-fold strategy best:
“Dumb memorization.” Learn the individual forms that you encounter in your reading, without worrying too much about how they come to take the form that they do (though you’ll notice that there are various consistencies among the inconsistencies). Most of them are quite common and widely distributed, otherwise they’d have been driven out of circulation.
Study what the grammar books tell you about how they’re formed, historically and synchronically. (Historically they’re complex but fairly regular, synchronically they’re a mess.) As you’re discovering, there are coherent elements to -μι verb conjugations, but they don’t form a wholly coherent system, largely because of contamination with -ω verb forms. -μι verbs are liable to succumb to the pressure exerted by -ω verbs, and this can lead to the coexistence of both forms (δεικνύω alongside δείκνυμι for instance), and to a mixture of forms (2&3 sing. impf. τίθημι are really -ω verb forms, for instance).
You can also study the conjugation charts and try picking out anomalies.
If it’s any comfort, everyone has a tough time with -μι verbs!
I’m probably gonna get some disagreement with this but I’m gonna go ahead and mention it anyway.
I actually used a memory palace to memorize all the forms of the verb ἴστημι.
Each paradyme has it’s own room and this has allowed me to have a birds eye view of how verbs work (like I can zoom out and observe the rooms from above)
I’m still working on the active forms for all the moods and tenses. It’s taken about 2 to 3 hours of work to layout the rooms and come up with the symbols but now that I have all the symbols and rooms I can just list it off.
The base ἴστημι has a base of στη or στα… Kinda of…(I divide it up a little different because of optatives like ι-σται-εν but that’s just for memorization purposes)
For the στη base I place my friend Stan in the room in six different places holding different items that represent the prefixes and suffixes.
For the στα base I place a star in the six locations that demand the στα base.
So for the indicative present active I have a room in the present wing of the palace with six locations. Three of which have my friend Stan holding different symbols representing prefixes and suffixes and in the other three locations of the six I have a star holding the symbols for the prefixes and suffixes…
Anyway…I just find memory palaces to be a very quick way to remember lists and paradymes cause you can go forward or backwards from any starting point.
Anyway… This weirdo will return to his corner and pretend like he never mentioned anything…
“Memory palace” was a new one on me. I simply brute force memorized things the old fashion way, though I did used to recite Latin paradigms in the shower to the tune of the Mexian Hat Dance song. I think the best I could ever work up would be memory huts, but seriously, whatever technique helps you learn the Greek, go for it. If it works, it’s good, but remembering that the goal is recognition of the form in context.
TextKit is quickly becoming my favorite place on the internet. This friendliness and helpfulness is unusual nowadays and reminds me of Internet in the 90:s. Thanks all Also thanks to Aetos for getting my name correctly, there are many ways to spell it but yours is correct.
To my surprise, there are fewer mi-verbs than I thought. Today I found that Wiktionary has a list of Greek verbs, and with some programming I downloaded that list and cross-referenced it with the frequency count list from Perseus. Looking at the 3999 most common words, there are just over 100 mi-verbs of which many are the usual compound variations.
The first one I didn’t recognize in the list was ἀπόλλυμι, and it delights me that it behaves exactly like δείκνυμι in the present and imperfect!
When I said there are “only so many -μι verbs” I nearly told you not to count them! But evidently you’re into quantification. You’ll find interesting things if you sort them in various ways. Take a look at the verbs in -υμι, for instance, or you could track the use of -μι verbs and their corresponding -ω verbs over time.
Mahasacham, your use of a memory palace has excellent antecedents, as no doubt you know. The technique was well known to Cicero, for instance, who describes it and made habitual use of it.
Its efficaciousness is well established, so I’m not surprised it worked for you, even though modern technology has lessened the need for it. Once you’ve got ιστημι down you’ll be able to extend it to other -μι verbs, as perhaps will bjrn too and even Barry. Barry, since it’s new to you, Wiki’s “Method of loci” article gives basic information.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0120%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D351
It goes from 2.351 to 2.354., in which Antonius relates the story of Simonides of Cos, who was being entertained by a certain Scopas. It seems that at some point during the evening he was called away from the apartment and while he was out the building collapsed and everyone within was crushed, their bodies becoming virtually unrecognisable. Simonides, however, remembered where they had been sitting and so was able to associate their names with the places they had been sitting, and thus identified the victims.
Barry, You really want me to spoonfeed you with what you can easily look up for yourself? But anyhow: the Cic. ref., as Aetos indicates, is de orat, 2.350ff.; note esp. 358. (The Simonides anecdote will be apocryphal, however.) Also important is bk.3 of the Rhet. ad Herennium (contemporary with early Cic.), and bk.11 of Quintilian. But I’m surprised you haven’t heard of the method, widely used from quite early antiquity and through the renaissance and on into modern times—witness mahasacham, whose use of his friend Stan (geddit?) is exemplary! Frances Yates’ The Art of Memory is now classic, and has been followed up.
But you’re probably keen to tell us more about what you get up to in the shower. So enlightening.
For me, I have found that remembering the forms is one thing, but internalizing another. I make plenty of mistakes with things that I can easily call to mind by thinking for a few seconds.
I was impressed by Rico’s classroom drill of calling out a set of rapid-fire commands, to be performed by students, who then would call out what they had just done in whatever tense was being worked on. He has a theory about using the tongue and body, etc., together, that I won’t try to reproduce from memory. But it’s a good method.
Another method is to take a few related characteristic words related to whatever verb you are trying to learn (nouns, prepositions, etc.), and write out a few essays using them. When things get boring, the words/topic can be varied.
The point was that it doesn’t have to be a word of frequent occurrence in order to be memorable. ασυνετημι happens to be the first word of one of Alcaeus’ most well-known odes, imitated by Horace in one of his most well-known odes. That, not its frequency (in fact it’s a hapax), is what makes it memorable to anyone who reads the literature in preference to mechanically compiling word-lists..
Alcaeus’ extended metaphor is certainly applicable to our current political situation, which has disturbingly much in common with Alcaeus’ violent political world. But that’s by the way, it’s not why I brought up this particular -μι verb.
Also thanks to Aetos for getting my name correctly, there are many ways to spell it but yours is correct.