If IPSE is a pronoun and SUI is a pronoun, then in English what
is ‘self’ considered? Is it an adjective or a pronoun or a
possesive adjective (himself)?
There is only one in english correct? There is just the word
‘self’ and it always falls under the same part of speech.
‘Myself’ or ‘I did it to myself’ is the same part of speech in
English correct? What part of speech is this, adj or pron or
a possesive adj?
Thanks.
I’m in no way a prodigy in the ways of English philology, and the particular word self is an example of one word apparently fitting into four parts of speech, cf. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self.
You cannot lure me into writing anything about possesives in English, and especially not compared to Latin, because the ways in which they are realised are so different, and I can’t formulate myself well enough for that purpose.
Myself is a pronoun. It functions as a reflexive, that is, as ‘se’ in Latin. The difference is that it is modified in English according to person, gender and number, yourself, themselves, herself etc. - the -self in this pronoun looks like a grammaticalisation of the noun ‘self’, i.e. ‘I did it to my self = to my own person = to me’.
IPSE seems to always correspond to ‘himself’ in 5 cases and SUI to
‘himself’ in 4 cases based upon the manipulation of ‘of, to, for, by,
from.’
There seems to be a pefectly preserved relation for when to use each.
There seems to be no flowchart with an ‘if/then’ decision for when
to violate this pattern. The only one i can find possible of doing this
to use something else would be the use of ‘he’ in an english translation
instead of ‘himself’. This should make no difference and it should have
been ‘himself’. The backward translation means nothing. Correct?
Thanks.
I’m not sure if this is your current question but,
All 5 cases are used with IPSE because it will agree with the noun it modifies:
[all examples in the singular.
Nominative: Is IPSE id puellae dabit. (He, himself, will give it to the girl)
Genitive: Vita viri IPSIUS sine amoribus valere poterit.
(The life of man, himself, will not be able to be strong
without love.)
Dative: Ea hanc mihi IPSI faciebat. (She made this for me, myself)
Accusative: Hunc liberum IPSUM scripsisti. (You wrote this very book.-this
book itself)
Ablative: Ego illa puella IPSA fugavi. (I fled from that very girl.-that
girl herself.)
The reason for there only being 4 cases for se is in the fact that as it is a
reflexive pronoun, it ALWAYS refers to the SUBJECT, and therefore can
never stand as the subject. It is used as any other noun of the predicate
would be:
Genitive: (I can’t think of a good example of how to use sui here, either
its proper use is something I haven’t learned yet or I missed
something.)
Dative: Ea] rosam SIBI miserat. (She had sent roses to herself.)
Accusative: Ea] SE ei miserat. (She had sent herself to him.)
Ablative: Ea] eum a SE miserat. (She had sent him from her(self).)
In the Examples for SE I only use EA to show who the pronoun reflects
back to.
sui, like the genitives mei, tui, nostri and vestri, is mainly (or only?) used as genitive of the object: amor sui: love for himself.
Ingrid
Gratias ago!
Slightly off the subject but heres a question:
In the reflexive sentence ‘He hates himself’
Does the subject noun stand alone, or is it really
considered a part of the greater label ‘the predicate’
Also, in the use of the reflexive (SUI) can you expect to
find 2 verbs where as in the non-reflexive (IPSE) you should
only find one verb in the sentence:
Reflexive: I hate myself (1 verb)
Non-Reflexive: We ourselves will sail across the sea (2 verbs)
Thanks.
There is but one verb in both sentences. ‘will sail’ is considered as one, since one is finite (will) and one is infinitive (sail), together they form one meaning, that ‘we’ do not sail as of now, but that we either want to go sailing, or we are definitely going to go sailing.
And the difference has nothing to do with the pronoun, as it is perfectly possible to say ‘I will hate myself’ or ‘we ourselves sail across the sea’, where the ‘myself-pronoun’ in the first is still reflexive, and in the second, it is still demonstrative.
This may sound stupid but I guess that the giveaway for the
SUI vs IPSE is that the comparitive structure of the two sentences
if its confusing you is:
IPSE - We ourselves will sail across the sea
SUI - We ourselves will sail across ourselves (literally
our own bodies)
Although the second sentence makes absolutely no sense, if
it did it would be reflexive which makes the difference between
the two clearer.
Correct?
Thanks.
Yes, if we were to sail across ourselves, that would translate into a sentence with se, where ‘se’ would be the object (or determinant for the preposition anyway) and would correspond to the subject, ‘we/nos’. The first ‘ourselves’, then, would still be rendered as ipsi (assuming that ‘we’ includes men, in nominativus pluralis masculinum).
In short, you are right, you have understood the difference, I shall cease to confuse you. 
(americans and other nationalities always start the paradigms nominative, genitive, whereas I and everyone else in my country start nominative, accusative, that’s why I always write ‘se’ as a starting point)