How to sound long vowels?

I couldn’t let it but upload a casual recording of the beginning 63 verses of the Bacchae (if it’s too much, be free to delete it, I’ll not be offended :smiley: )
This is more or less the way I utter the longs. Not all longs are born equal, in duration or otherwise, but this is more a rough trial in style than in anything else.
As you’ll hear, I’m not a believer in a steady tempo, however I (try to) keep the relative durations within the cola correct.
I hope it helps, as the wide range of advice before this message surely did.

NB: the lengthening of accented syllables in Greek is mentioned by a grammarian (don’t have the name or work written before me) if I remember well for the first time around the 4-5th c. CE

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Thank you, Ioannis! I am a fan of your recordings, particularly of Homer.

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Thanks! This may be of use, despite me not using the reconstructed Attic pronunciation (I’m currenly experimenting with Koine pronunciations).

Koine is a total chaos, one has to know who has written what, when, where and the environment. A compilation proposed by Luke Ranieri is a good compromise, as are more of the others, but for the same reason one can just keep using Attic. I think Koine should refer to the grammatical / syntactic changes and less to pronunciation. It’s no accident that the educated folks up to our times always return to Attic.

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Fair enough, but I can’t stand the amount of letters which sound like I on Modern Greek (seven homophones, really?! ι, η, υ, οι, ει, υι, ῃ), and I don’t think I could make all those aspirated stops of classical Attic consistently, so I end up using a long e for eta, the German ü for υ and οι and now distinguishing long and short vowels and consonant, and then using the modern values for the other letters (which is more or less the pronunciation that Buth prescribes for Koine, except that I distinguish quantities). I plan reading literature from all periods, but it seems to me that using those more evolved values for all those ancient authors is less weird than reading the New Testament or Saint John Chrysostom as a 5th century B.C. Athenian would speak.

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I count 9 ways to write the modern sound of iota (your 7 + the long variants of ι, υ) :smiley: Funny fact, the Modern Greek iota sounds more like the ancient monophthongized ει today (thus “sharper”)than its more ancient value.
Of course it’s wrong to pronounce later Greek the classical Attic way, but I find it less confusing for people who learn Attic as a standard, which it is. Besides, Attic prosody isn’t relevant for later forms of poetry anyway, because of loss of quantity, fricatization of some consonants and the change in perception of the nature of the accent (because dynamic & melodic always and still go hand in hand). But in later prose these aspects are not so important anyway.

About the Y, it sounds like German ü when long, but in practice, when short the speech organs don’t really have time to fully reach the relevant positions, resulting in a “darker” sound more of short muffled German U.
Maybe it might assist you to follow the prosody exercises (quantity & accents’ basics) at Prosody Tutorial 01 • I.Stratakis • spoken AncientGreek.eu and Prosody Tutorial 02 • I.Stratakis • spoken AncientGreek.eu
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I have trouble hearing the trimeter in this recording. It’s really noticeable on line 6, for example, where μνῆμα gets an extra syllable “mu-ne…” rather than going fully nasal. That’s just impossible to do wrong when you’re feeling the ictus.

Long time since my last post on Textkit, it seems… Great to see the new site running!

Ioannis is splendid as always. Of all the attempts to reconstruct Ancient Greek pronunciation I’ve come across his is, in my opinion, the one that sounds by far the most natural. While of course I can’t say how it really worked in Ancient Greek, my native Finnish has short vs. long vowel distinction, and to my ear this sounds really very natural, not exaggerated at all (if indeed it’s possible to take Finnish phonology as a model here). It’s possible (I really don’t know) that long vowels are just a bit more pronounced than on the Hungarian and Navajo videos posted by Hylander, but then again in a passage of poetry this kind of thing is only to be expected. I think we can hear the meter very well, it’s just not overdone, or rather it’s done very nicely and gives a pleasant flow to the text without drawing our attention to the meter.

Btw, I think Joel’s attempt is pretty nice too, on the level of “us mortals”… :smile: You really manage to overcome your native phonology - ancient Greek is a nightmare to English speakers, and not just vowel quantity, but the vowel system in general, as well the aspirated vs. unaspirated stops and all the rest…

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The standard, imo, in a thread about long vowels, is not prettiness, but rather whether the pronunciation hits the meter well enough to compose by ear, etc. The above is pretty…but it confuses ε and ει in the early lines, and inserts syllables as I mentioned. With work, these faults could be corrected, and then it could be both pretty and metrical.

If you can say a line out loud, and hear whether it’s metrical or not, without seeing it written down, then maybe you’re doing it right. But if you can’t do that, there is some problem with the reconstruction. The people who got very good at this were the English classical scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries, and I assume that they all sounded like Etonian schoolboys…but they had to get vowel length and consonant junction and a few other things right to do it.

Hi jeidsath, excuse me the late reaction!

This was a knocked up recording of the Bacchae intro made on the spot just to react to the message, so there shall be things I would have done differently.

I’m actually trying to follow the advice of Dionysius Thraix, that is «Ἀνάγνωσις ἐστι ποιημάτων… Ἀναγνωστέον δὲ καθ’ ὑπόκρισιν, κατὰ προσῳδίαν, κατὰ διαστολήν.» Where “by διαστολὴ we understand the contained meaning”. (The word has some meanings, among others separation, distinction and, another expansion; this expansion is often mentioned in the writings of the metricians where a long can be 2, 3, or even 4 times longer. Also, it’s remarkable in the Bankes and other papyri that selectively some long syllables have been marked with a long sign, which could indicate a special lengthening on that place; at least this is how I interpret it).

Ιf the first criterion above, of recreating speech from reading is “ὑπόκρισις”, that is imitation or reproduction of real life speaking, then I still have to meet a person speaking in one steady tempo…
What I often hear by other people recording Greek, is their fixation on ictus and a steady tempo (not rhythm) throughout. But, the even term “ictus” in this context is just a couple of hundred years old, if I understand it well and never spoken of in Anc. Greek.

Also this steadiness of both (tempo & rhythm) is in reality already disturbed by enjambement or resolution; the (discussion of) different durations among the longs (also short vowels).
These happen so often that one cannot speak of a “special effect” anymore and I find they point to the dominance of phrasing more than anything else. I can’t imagine listeners/viewers of ancient performances willing to be hypnotized by not understanding the spoken text for hours listening to a repeated pattern etc.

Of course in an educative environment one is inclined to just keep steady timing and that has its purpose, however to perform is another chapter often ignored.

A different point is, my ἀπορία: What should one consider the expressive means of a reciter (ῥαψῳδός) which could lead Plato to describe Ion’s artistic profile in comparison with other performers? If they all had to realize the same task and epic/operatic score, how could he be the “star” claimed to be?

The “mu-ne” is a way to make a syllable long by position sound longer, for increasing its duration. People do it sometimes here in Greece in everyday speech, especially in the provinces, so I’ve copied this practice. “Normal” educated speech in Greece considers it unsofisticated though, like other prosodies that seem to have existed in the ancient form of the language. It’s my solution also in the case muta-cum-liquida when they have to create a long by position. Funny is that sometimes the same combination appears twice in a verse, one time in a syllable scanned short, then with a long one…

But, as always, I may miss something in my practice, so feel free to inform me!

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Paul, thanks for your positive words, I’m trying my best to discover how it could all sound natural. It’s not always easy but although we all learn it by looking at a printed page the preponderance of orality leaves no other space than to experiment with prosodic characteristics at first common in (at least) the IE family.
You heard it well, I’m not emphasizing the metre, because its regularity would distract from following and understanding the text and meaning. In some places I, of course, do emphasize it as a means to support the underlying intension in the text. Homer gives the opportunity to do a lot with this in many ways.
But, as in music or other performing arts, it’s not the steady tempo that shows the art but the spiced deviation and return to it. I have a moto “Sine Casu et Amore Ars non est”, which applies here as well. Metaphorically we need both the frequent repetition and the deviation in order to feel that something happens, be it “life” or “art”.
Instead of a repeated metre in one tempo I use a steady relationship between the parts, the division is important within the colon, the rational relation between the smaller units, which in turn can be spoken fast or slower following the sentiment or disposition of the moment and the thing expressed.
Anyway, I stop here, otherwise the conversation will get too long …

Ioannis,
I admired your recording of the Bacchae prologue. I very much agree with your avoidance of an invariant tempo. To my ear the meter came out very well.
One small query. You say that in some papyrus texts certain long syllables are marked with a long sign. But won’t it be the quantity of the vowel that is marked, rather than the syllable?

They of course place the macron only on long syllables, but the scribe’s selectivity is remarkable. It would seem haphazard until one tries to recite the passages. For me was it immediately and undoubtedly clear why they are there, together with ‘some’ acutes and graves in places.

One possibility would be just grammatical technical assistance when in doubt, but the places are too strategically distributed.

The mystery were the graves, but accidentally (having invented my set of symbols when preparing) I could see why there are graves on certain locations where officially there is no need for.

When home I’ll try to send an image.

Ioannis, Thanks for the response, but I think you’re wrong about this. Quantity marks, whether long or short, were used to indicate the quantity of particular vowels, and nothing more than that. If you have evidence to the contrary I’d be glad to see it. Syllable weight is a quite separate matter, and papyri don’t concern themselves with it at all.
With respect,
Michael