Eph. 4:11 - construction and number of groups

Greek Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
1

Dear all,

I would like to know your opinion on the following comment I’ve read
on the web, concerning the letter to ephesians 4:11 of the NT, its
construction and whether there are four or five groups mentioned:


/----------------------------
Eph 4:11
“kai autos edwke
tous men apostolous
tous de profhtas
tous de euaggelistas
tous de poimenas kai didaskalous”

Without parts men-de-de-de, it would be like this:

“kai autos edwke
tous apostolous
tous profhtas
tous euaggelistas
tous poimenas kai didaskalous”

Which is translated without any doubt:
And he gave THE apostles, THE prophets, THE evangelists, THE shepherds
and THE teachers

“tous? is the article.

Adding the men-de-de-de construction DOES NOT MODIFY the article nor
some of the substantives, that is it does not add a nuance of “some to
be?, or “those to be?.

The men-de-de-de construction influence ONLY the citation
construction, adding to it a nuance of “(as) – as well as – as well as– as well
as?, or if you want “on one hand – on the other hand – on the other
hand…?

Here are two variants, choose the style you like:

  1. And he gave (AS) the apostles, AS WELL AS the prophets, AS WELL AS
    the evangelists, AS WELL AS the shepherds and THE teachers.

  2. And he gave ON ONE HAND the apostles, ON THE OTHER HAND the
    prophets, ON THE OTHER HAND the evangelists, ON THE OTHER HAND the shepherds
    and THE teachers.

No variant unite strictly the shepherds and the teachers. They are
united as an end of citation.
-------------------------

If you disagree, can you point out good reasons and perhaps some
examples which show clearly the right way of understanding.

Thank you

2

Can you post the link the the site this appeared on to see the larger context of this snip??

FWIW, I think that it is 4 groups, and that the last group is a classic TSKS constuction. (viz. Colwell construction)

3

This exact question was asked recently on B-Greek. Here is a link to the first message. Then just click on next message for the first response etc.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2006-April/038225.html

4

Unfortunately it is not in English and I had to translate it. The context is a dispute related to whether there are 4 or 5 groups presented in Ehp.4:11. At the moment I tend to believe that there are 4 groups there, but I would like to hear more independent opinions and arguments on that.

Is “tous? here a demonstrative pronoun or an article?
What about men-de-de… - does it change anything in this case?
Is it sure “tous de? in that construction makes poimenas kai didaskalous one group?
Are there proper analogous examples?

What is the right literal translation?

kai [AND] autos [HE] edwken [GAVE]
tous [THESE] men [(ON ONE HAND)] [(TO BE)] apostolous [SENT ONES]
tous [THESE] de [(ON THE OTHER HAND)] profhtas [PROPHETS]
tous [THESE] de [(ON THE OTHER HAND)] еuagelistas [GOOD NEWS “ANNOUNNCERS?]
tous [THESE] de [(ON THE OTHER HAND)] poimenas [HERDSMEN/SHEPHERDS] kai [AND] didaskalous [TEACHERS].

or

kai [AND] autos [HE] edwken [GAVE]
tous [THE] men [(ON ONE HAND)] apostolous [SENT ONES]
tous [THE] de [AND] profhtas [PROPHETS]
tous [THE] de [AND] еuagelistas [GOOD NEWS “ANNOUNNCERS?]
tous [THE] de [AND] poimenas [HERDSMEN/SHEPHERDS] kai [AND] didaskalous [TEACHERS].
?

If there is one I would also be glad to read some detailed analysis on that, online or in a book.

Thanks

5
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6

I have to admit that this is one of the cases where I am 100% sure of the exact translation in English since when it comes to ancient Greek I usually first think of them in modern Greek and then English and, in this case, we’d use the same wording (men -de).

The men-de in this cases is more like a differentiating(?) factor. What I mean is that it serves to show that each group was made of different people (and I realise that this explanation probably need explaining itself but I am not up to it right now)

So, maybe, you could use “others” or even “some” in English, though I am not sure it is necessary.

7

Do we have double accusative in Eph.4:11?

kai [and] autos [he] edwken [gave] tous [ACCUSATIVE_1/these] men [(on one hand)] [(impl./TO BE)] apostolous [ACCUSATIVE_2], etc.

8

First…you really don’t need to post the English equivalents in this forum. If you were on the Open board it would be appropriate, but here we pretty well assume you know a bit of Greek. You still can if you want, but for me, it is a little more difficult to read.

Second…IMO what we have here is a hendiadys. Yes they are both in the accusative, but they are ONE group (as I’ve said before). I am really curious why this is such an issue? To me it seems to be a simple grammatical conclusion.

9

Probably because this is one of the most disputed (or if you wish missinterpreted) parts of the Bible.

It has been translated/interpreted in quite different ways depending on what one wants to ‘prove’.

10

Dear Kopio,

For me it is very important what exactly is written, because I would like to base my understanding about those things on what is really written. At the moment I see some variants and I can not convince myself enough what is the true one. That is why I decided to ask others for their opinion also.

We can easily see in the law, prophets, scriptures, and in NT that great variety of people were compared to herdsmen/shepherds – kings (not only of Israel), nobles (not only of Israel), military leaders, (in some contexts most probably priests, teachers, prophets), even the very God, the elders of the whole community of God in given towns or villages, Jesus the son of God, etc. That is – generally some kind of leaders. And those who were “led? by those specific various kinds of leaders were correspondingly compared to a flock, sheep, cattle, and even to a horse.

The above mentioned is quite enough to show that those comparisons were not written to help us understand what specifically were the compared people, but just the opposite - we already knew what are those people specifically – kings, nobles, elders, God… - that was merely some figurative way of expression to bring to our perception more “graphical? notion.

Every kind of “leaders? could be compared to herdsmen…

And respectively there is not a specific office called “herdsman?. This would be in contradiction with the whole scripture, and also with elementary logic. And is of course also laughable.

That is, we could not in any way understand what specific people were compared to herdsmen if it was not clear from the very context. Because God compared himself to a herdsman doesn’t mean that every one that is compared to a herdsman is God. The same about kings, nobles etc.

In Eph. 4:11 there is the same comparison to herdsmen of some people. The nearest in context are the teachers. So that my supposition is that here the teachers are compared to herdsmen.
And what is more, Simon, which is sent-out one (apostolos), is also compared to a shepherd in Jn21, so that the sent-out ones are also compared to shepherds… Well, of course, they are some leaders…

So in Eph.4:11 we have at least more than one group compared to herdsmen (apostoloi, and the last one). And this is not a contradiction, because the comparison to herdsmen is not determinative related to specific kind of leaders – it is a general figure.

The question is what specifically are the last compared to herdsmen?
Teachers?
Kings, nobles, God… ? (all those and some more were compared to herdsmen…)

I would say that the context is definitely speaking about teachers.
But I would like to be 100% sure about what exactly the Greek text says. Or at least that it does not in any way contradict the rest of the scripture…

So I would like to be sure about the true meaning presented by the construction, and especially if there are four or five groups, and if there are four groups - about the meaning of the last group description: For example:
“those of the leaders in the community of God which are teachers??
As we already have people compared to herdsmen representing:
“those of the leaders in the community of God which are messengers of the anointed (spostoloi christou)?(Jn21), or elders (1Pet5) .



Which variant is the right one? Or there is some other?:

7But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of the anointed.
8Wherefore he says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.
[…]
11And he gave (to every one of us) some (of us) to be sent-out ones, (some of us are those)
and some (of us) to be prophets,
and some (of us) to be good news announcers,
and some (of us) to be herdsmen and teachers,
12for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of the anointed:

or

7But to every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of the anointed.
8Wherefore he says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.
[…]
11And he gave (to/for every one of us) the sent-out ones, (as if none of us are those)
and (to/for every one of us) the prophets,
and (to/for every one of us) the good news announcers,
and (to/for every one of us) the herdsmen and teachers,
12for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of the anointed:

11

Re: The 5 FOLD MINISTRY, Shepherds As Pastors

" The word “pastor” means “a shepherd, one who shepherds the sheep.”

“Pastor” means “a shepherd,” to watch over the flock, to teach them the Word of God."

"Wherever the Shepherd goes, the sheep follow, “My sheep know My voice, and a stranger they will not follow.” That’s right. He… That shepherd knows grunts and everything else that make those sheep behave.
Then when we got out of the city, it was an amazing thing, I seen a–a field out there and some men laying around; they had donkeys, and cows, and pigs, and sheep, and goats, and everything out there. And I said, “Well, what’s them guys out there?”
He said, “Shepherds.”
And I said, “A shepherd herding donkeys?”
And he said, “Yes, sir.”
Well, I said, “I–I thought a shepherd just meant sheep.”
He said, “No. ‘Shepherd’ is a ‘herder, grazer.’ And over in your country they call them cowboys and–and things like that.”
I said, “Oh, I see, a shepherd is a herder.”
“Yes.”
“He watches the herd.”
“That’s right.” He said, “The strange thing is at nighttime, where you–it’s striking… You being a minister, and I might tell you something.” He said, “When nighttime comes… It’s true he pastors every one of them, leads them around and helps them and see that they get good things through the day. But when nighttime comes the–all the–the mules, and the donkeys, and the–the camels, and whatever he’s got, is left out into the field. But he rounds up the sheep and takes them to the corral.”

“Oh,” I said, “Lord, make me a sheep, whatever You do.” See? For when the nighttime comes, I want to go into the sheepfold.
He said,
…I am the door to the sheepfold.
All that ever come before me is thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I am the door: by me if any man enters in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out and find pasture." - William M. Branham