I have a terrible time understanding this stuff without actually hearing it. But would the word “bookkeeper” be an example of a double k sound, as opposed to “book, keeper” with a pause? Or is it becoming a single k sound with an aspiration, like “book-heaper”?
It sounds like it to me, Nick. Book-keep-(h)er is how I pronounce it, and there is a difference between that and boo-keeper, however subtle.
The ancient Greek grammarians were perfectly aware of geminate consonants and their pronunciation–the already cited example of a double consonant creating a long/heavy syllable in metrical texts is discussed by, for instance, Dionyisius Thrax.
Two other matters briefly: ThomasGR talks about having to insert a glottal stop in geminate consonants. I doubt there’s actually a glottal stop there, but there is a sort of pause of articulation, which is exactly what one does in careful articulation of geminate stops.
In terms of “trilled” lambda, I’m not familiar with the original discussion, but I would guess that someone was talking about the distinction between “light” and “dark” l, which are simply allophones in English (generally, in standard English light pre-vocalic, dark post-vocalis). Greek lambda was, as far as anyone knows, always light.
Given the context, I doubt it.
which are simply allophones in English (generally, in standard English light pre-vocalic, dark post-vocalis). Greek lambda was, as far as anyone knows, always light.
Nope. Or not in every dialect, at least. In some, lambda in some positions became υ, which is a more usual development of the dark /l/.
Well, that teaches me to jump into conversations of which I don’t know the original context!
On your second matter, interesting. Which dialects and where? I don’t doubt the outcome of dark l in some dialects, but I’m not familiar with them.
More randomly: how does one quote a previous post on these forums?[/i]
From Palmer’s The Greek Language, p.209, “A velar coloring before a consonant is suggested by the occasional substitution of υ in Cretan (ἀδευπιαί for ἀδελφιαί).”
More randomly: how does one quote a previous post on these forums?
At the upper right of each post is a “quote” button which will drop you into a reply form with the entire thing in quote tags.
From Palmer’s The Greek Language, p.209, "A velar coloring before a
consonant is suggested by the occasional substitution of υ in Cretan (ἀδευπιαί for ἀδελφιαί)."
Forgive me for forgetting the inscriptional evidence, though one should point out that this is limited to Cretan, and while the Latin grammarians are, for example, reasonably clear on the two different outcomes of /l/, the Greek grammarians do not so distinguish, and there seems to be no reason to assume a “velar coloring” in other dialects based on their evidence or the outcome of lambda in modern Greek.
At the upper right of each post is a “quote” button which will drop you into a reply form with the entire thing in quote tags.
Many thanks! Amazing how one misses the obvious.
As I said, the dark /l/ appeared in some dialects at least. Given the examples of other languages where some groups drop /l/ to a glide, while others do not, I’m not prepared to dismiss out of hand the idea that the dark /l/ might have been more widely used. I’m thinking of Old Occitan at the moment, proencal vs. proencau.
In my own pronunciation, I just stick with a clear /l/, though I have to fight the urge to a dark /l/ when the lambda is doubled for some reason. I blame my study of Arabic for that.
Well, put in that way, I’m not prepared to dismiss it either. But I don’t think that it’s much to worry about in Greek.
In my own pronunciation, I just stick with a clear /l/, though I have to fight the urge to a dark /l/ when the lambda is doubled for some reason. I blame my study of Arabic for that.
That’s a pretty cool reason to be able to blame that on. In any case, I don’t think the precise quality of pronunciation of the lambda is really a problem that ranks very high on the list of issues facing modern learners of ancient Greek.
I’m very curious about the terms “light” and “dark” describing sounds. I finally managed to get a copy of Vox Graeca a little while ago, but I don’t have it with me now. Can I read about it there? Will it be in the index?
~N
Light L is the sound in “lullaby” while dark L is the sound in “bull.”
Very enjoyable discussion, and (of course) William Annis explained everything beautifully.
ThomasGR is perfectly correct in that there is a difference between resonants (including nasals and liquids) which are “continuant” and (as he says) can be “sung” for as long as you want, and a stop (or plosive) which cannot be prolongued.
A doubled stop is not “prolongued”. It is simply that there are two adjacent stops: one syllable ENDS in a stop (instead of being open), and the next syllable begins in what happens to be the same stop. And in languages such as Japanese and Italian it is an extremely noticeable and important distinction.
The example of “bookkeper” vs. “boo-keeper” illustrates it perfectly. I’m afraid I don’t know enough German to think of similar examples that could help ThomasGR understand.
The only other thing I would add to the discussion of double sigma vs. double tau is this: there were some dialects where this sound was written with a special consonant which has (I believe) no Unicode code-point. It looked like a capital T with fairly large serifs on the crossbar. I’ll try to find a picture of one and upload it. Some scholars have speculated that this letter (which may have descended from the archaic Greek letter San) was used to write a sound such as the “ch” in “church”.
Some scholars have also speculated that in fact the -ss- or -tt- spelling may have been an imperfect attempt to represent this, or a similar sound (e.g., “ch” or the “sh” in “ship”), and that even in Attic Greek, it may not have been pronounced as a double tau.
If so, however, then it is surprising that none of the scholars at the time mentioned the sound, so it is probable that by the classical period at least, -tt- and -ss- were pronounced as written.
That’s just my two and a half cents. 